Comparative Politics with Professor Francesca Vassallo
May 2, 2019
In this episode, Benn talks with Professor Francesca Vassallo of the University of Southern Maine, who studies protest movements and activism through a comparative lens. They cover how Europe's Green movement evolved from a protest movement into political parties — and how that shift forced center-left and center-right parties to co-opt environmental policy. Vassallo explains why winning elections matters more than street demonstrations alone, how "size and cause" drive a protest's effectiveness, and the risks of manufactured or misleading causes online. They discuss social capital, including the difference between "bridging" capital (built through shared activities across differences, like youth sports leagues) and its "dark side" (exclusionary groups like cults), and how organizers can create bridging spaces in polarized communities. Vassallo also shares her three keys for organizers juggling multiple projects — motivation, being realistic about goals, and building a team of specialists — and closes with a look at France's protest culture, from farmers driving manure-filled tractors to Brussels to student movements that have repeatedly forced out France's minister of education.
SHOW NOTES
Professor Vassallo, a political science comparativist specializing in contentious politics and protest movements across Europe shares with us a bit about the green party’s success in countries across Europe, the culture of protesting in France, social capital and how to build it, and why it is so important to show up to vote.
To learn more about Professor Vassallo, you can check out her bio on the University of Southern Maine website by clicking here.
Below are the titles with publication year of many (not all) of Professor Vassallo’s written work.
The Evolution of Protest Research: Measures and Approaches (Art. Jan 2018)
Political Activism Research: Studying the Evolution of Political Behavior (Art. April 2016, co-author Vincenzo Memoli)
Explaining Protest in the Aftermath of the Great Recession in Europe: The Relevance of Different Economic Indicators (Art. April 2016)
Political Activists: French & Germans compared (Art. Dec. 2013)
Sarkozy & Merkel: The Undeniable Relevance of the Franco-German Bilateral Relationship in Europe (Art. April 2013)
France and Germany Fifty Years after the Elysee Treaty & Intro (Art. Jan 2013)
The EU Discourse in the 2012 French Presidential Election (Art. Dec 2012)
France, Social Capital and Political Activism (book, 2010)
Democracy support in EU Candidate Countries: a reality check (Art. June 2009, co-author Vincenzo Memoli)
Political Participation and the Gender Gap in European Union Member States (Art. Dec 2006)
Political Activism and Association Involvement: The French Choice in Comparative Perspective (Dec 2004)
Independent participants: The path to French political activism (2002)
EU Homo Politicus: A single model of political participation? (2001)
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Benn Marine 0:06
Welcome to the ocean of organizing podcast where every week we explore what it means to build community and create change. I'm your host Ben Marine and this week is a special treat. I think by now you all know how much I believe in asking for help and the creation of this podcast is certainly no exception without the accountability of my guest today. Professor Francesco Vassallo misadventure may have never gotten off the ground. I had taken several classes with her here at the University of Southern Maine, which was enough to recognize that she knew her stuff and that she sets the bar high and supports our students in reaching it exactly what I was looking for in an accountability buddy. Yes, I said accountability buddy one independent study later and here we are streaming through your car, headphones or radio. I will be forever grateful for her guidance and steadfastness. Professor Vassallo Studies, protest movements and activism through a comparative Lens. Today I get to share with you a conversation in which we discuss the Green party movement across Europe, building social capital, the power of voting and protests, and more. Without much further ado, let's dive on in to kind of kick us off. I'm curious, what got you interested in studying politics?
Francesca Vassallo 1:30
I, I actually grew up in Europe. I spent, I think the first 23 years in my life in Europe, in between France and Italy. And there is a lot of political activism there. Um, even at a very young age, uh, there are street protests every other week. Um, when you go to college in Europe, it's very politicized. There are different types of public groups were organizers had the college. Um, they're always demonstrations against the new educational policies against new new tuitions that had been posed on students. So you can only escape what's going on. Um, some people participate. Otter, dawn, uh, I was never really someone who was ideologically driven per se. I know I like certain type of causes, but it was not necessarily blind in my approach to what I should support. And so when I went on in life and I decided that I liked to, to study, uh, what other countries are doing, I thought that I already, and this was a lot about political activism. Uh, especially individuals and what they want and how they accomplish it. And so slowly, progressively I got into political science, comparative politics. I had a mentor in Grad school who was a big name in political activism. He corrode one on the, uh, foundational textbooks and in comparative politics protests for example. And so almost because of dad, I follow in, I follow through with what he was doing and the more I did it, the more I liked him and I thought since this actually you will never stop, why not keep doing this I think is very appealing.
Benn Marine 3:14
Did you, have you spent a lot of time actually participating in protests either just for, you know, like you said, there was like particularly issues that you care about and or uh, from, uh, an academic standpoint to like study protests and if you've done both, how were those experiences different?
Francesca Vassallo 3:29
So I think, um, I participate in protests but not as actively as audit people have non it. Um, so I know a lot about it, but I'm not necessarily the first person to participate actively in it. And part of that is because maybe I know too much about it and I know what will work and I will not work. And so out of people will join iin. Different types of causes in different ways, you know, with the petitions or street demonstration. So campaign fundraising and so forth. And based upon my understanding of the firm cases, I already know what it, what or not that will work. And so in my opinion, sometimes, you know, you know, I decided to maybe to make a donation to on candidates, uh, already knowing that Kennedy will now make it no matter what, or I decide to sign a petition or not to sign a mutation on already knowing this is not gonna making a difference. So maybe it'd probably cynical because of the US, because of what I know in, in politics and how things get done in politics. But I'm still very much in support. I'll put like an activism. So, um, I think I'm more active today than I used to be in making donations, for instance, to shuttle carries across party lines. And I've talked to a lot of people in the discipline who find themselves with this conundrum, you know, can I participate and study the movement at the same time? Uh, is that, can I keep my balance and my distance from the movement if I'm part of it because I'm studying the movement as I'm part of it. And that gets really tricky and sometimes in being very objective,
Benn Marine 5:02
I feel like that begs the question. Um, what do you find works? What's effective and what's not? Like what are like when, when you get either approached on the street or you hear about something, uh, through the internet or, or however it presents itself to you, what are some of the key signals where you're like, that's not going anywhere or, or you, oh my gosh, this is awesome. I want to be part of this,
Francesca Vassallo 5:22
I've seen over the past 20 plus years is that generally, um, slow and steady works better than fast and hard type of thing. Um, that you have to position all your players and the right locations to make sure that whatever you want, it actually goes through. And that starts with a winning elections. You know, it sounds difficult to say, but the question is, unless you win the elections, everything else becomes really, really difficult to accomplish. The courts help in ways, but it, it, it takes a lot longer through the courts that he takes through by winning elections. And so I think many movements historically I've seen some of women's, like the Green Movement for example, especially in Europe, they used to be just a movement. And so they would support policies and practices that would protect the environment, um, and animals for example. And that was fine. Everything worked quite well until they realize that it doesn't matter how many times they would make speeches and they would rally and they would have street demonstrations anytime, anytime they would hug a tree, not much came out of it. You know, people said, yes, I agree with you. And nothing changed. And they had exactly the same type of problems, vary a little bit of more support, but not necessarily a change in the policies. And so eventually they decided that as a movement, if you want it to be effective, you need to become a party. And as a party, if you win seats that you'll love likelier to make some changes, even if you don't win the elections. But at least you win some seats. You Lot likelier to win, to make some changes to the legislation that otherwise as a movement, no matter how right you are, they will never happen. And I think the Green Party has had more success in countries in Europe than it than we've seen here in the United States. I'm curious why you think that is. Like why, why, why they're seeing greater success and are maybe able to take up more political space, uh, with their candidates and we're able to see here. So the irony of this is that when the green movement decided to become a party, they started winning, um, up to about eight, 9% of the votes, a different elections across Europe, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, to the point of where they were creating problems with the major parties. And so they were included in government alliances. And so they had a big say in government policies that otherwise they will not have any it on. And so what happened is that the major parties both on the left on their eyes, they realize that they were threatened now and they decided to coopt their policies. And so now you had parties on the left in particular who became focused on diversity in different interpretations of diversities, which meant you know, equal rights, um, gender equality, a respect of the environment and so forth. So on. And so they got more votes because of that. And also the same was the case for parties on the center, right? And so they started appealing to potential voters. So what do you favor of the environment? And so parties on the center where I started saying, okay, you know what? We're going to actually start to cut down on gas emissions for cars. I think we believe it's actually the right thing to do. It helpful. W we have seen the deterioration of hair quality here. So actually we should actually put some more taxes, gasoline as a way to pay for better environments, protection and so forth. So on. And so both parties on the centralized central left co opted their policy. So that's why we have a bit more environmental protection in other countries, including Canada for example. But at the same time, because they call up their, their policies, the Green party loss large chunk of their voters because some of those people, when federal green green policies, um, they started voting either centralized doctor left because they were more likely to win the elections. And so the Green party were left, you know, so no way satisfied at their points were taken on by out of parties. That was the good accomplishment. But at the same time, this study is fine because they're voters actually moved on and they realize that, you know, we need to do more than simply green movements here. We need to do a lot about equality movements, right? And so the environment and the individuals and so forth, so on. And so they became a lot larger than the Greens. So the Greens themselves later on we are going to eyes themselves into a more larger type of party focused on human and nature coexistence, which included equality. And Olsen's included protection for human rights and so forth, so on. Awesome. I'm curious too with that as so as the,
Benn Marine 10:14
uh, kind of major parties take on that platform, I feel like the role then shifts to the Green party or those folks kind of holding those people accountable. Is that because they've lost a lot of their membership, is that now harder to do or do they have to shift? I think for me sometimes when I think about, uh, environmental work,
Francesca Vassallo 10:34
it seems like
Benn Marine 10:36
the lengths that they have to go to are more extreme. Like thinking like eco terrorism, right? Like, and, and I know that's going kind of way far out into this other direction, but, uh, how, how does, how does that kind of fit into
Francesca Vassallo 10:49
kind of fit into this like larger narrative? I think there was a great episode of the Simpsons About Lisa. Uh, the entire episode is on a tree hugging a tree to protect the traffic from being cut down. Um, so we deemed the green movement as some voters became more pragmatic and started voting for larger parties were also in support of the environment. Those were left in the green movement actually split. And so some of them became pragmatic. I said, listen, this is the bast approach we can have if he want to pass this legislation to protect the environment. And a lot has happened because as recently as last year, some European countries like France and the UK for instance, they pass legislation stating that from 20, 40 only electric cars will be sold in the country. You can still keep your old gas gasoline car, that's fine. But all new cars will be sold in those countries, will be electric from 2040 is not really that far long, 20, 40. And so that's the level of commitment and some of these larger parties, uh, of, of, uh, demonstrated to retain these new valleys on the amendment. But those were pragmatic within the green movement. They moved on and said, listen, this is the best way, the best approach, you know, and I've the street demonstrations and enough with riding my bicycle in the middle of the winter to prove a point because it becomes quite difficult in southern Germany if you want to keep riding your bicycle with snow around and ice around just to, because you don't want to use a car because it's polluting. Um, as an example, as some of those people, especially because they, they grew older and that's part of the discussion here. They grow old this with the cell. Listen, this is the best approach. Now we should actually be strategical in what we do. And that's how we do it this way. The auto people as minority, not the majority, but a minority within removement actually radicalized and they rejected this type of approach because in their eyes this was a betrayal of the cause. And some of them decided to retreat into communities, isolated communities in different, um, rural areas and across different countries. And you can find it nowadays across the u s as well. Um, there are small communities like 20 to 40 people, they leave off the grid entirely. They use solar energy. That's what they have. But very little. They grow, they tried to grow their own food for the most part that they build their own houses or whatever type of cabin they can, they can build, they sell, they are self sustain by all accounts. That's what they want to do. But they retreated from the political fight because they disagree with the fact that they would compromise and be pragmatic about how you can, how you can accomplish things. Unfortunately. And even Smolin Rd, they turn to ecoterrorism and they're rejected, uh, old possible pragmatism and they say, listen, we are running out of time so we can all simply tolerate the fact that for, and you get a gasoline tax for instance, to protect the environment at the same time, you're actually a builtin and 30 new condos who were built on a land where you had to take down a hundreds, hundreds of trees for example. So that's also weird. This movement has split over time. I have a, an impressive list here of I think over a dozen different publications that you're in. And I was really interested, I saw one of your more recent ones was about protest research. Uh, and, and what motivates participants and kind of outcomes from that. I'm curious, what were your, what were your findings and how and how protests are being studied. So, um, due to the increased level of activism across countries over the last three, four years, a lot has been written about protests and how protest has become the nominee dominant component of activism as well. A little bit of history way back, you know, 60 years ago or so when political science started as, as, as a discipline scholars studied political participation and the only component of political patients there was researched at that time was voting nothing else matter because in the eyes of scholars, so that time the only way you citizen could contribute to society was through voting. That was it. Since then, a lot has changed and since then, and especially in collaboration with sociology, um, scholars nowadays are considering different components. I'll pull it up, participation. And so talking about voting, it's useful, but it's very limited and there's a lot more than people do to be politically active. And so protest is something that has been reenergized in the discipline where otherwise, generally what is referred to was referred to by political scientists. Sociologists as an extremist version of political expression nowadays is not. And I don't know, there's actually, it is quite acceptable version of political expression, which also gets things done. And that's the point. You know, when you voted, you're not extreme and you got things done, goes a vote contributes to someone maybe getting elected. What you protest. The idea is that, uh, um, uh, you beat an extreme. Nowadays the assumption is the conclusion is no, and you're still getting things done even if you are protesting. So bully Catino buy cotting nowadays does work. Uh, and people have realized that different movements, I realized that at the Lola, at the local level, at the national level, so this can be effective without the need to wait for an election, for you to present your own opinions. So protests initially was voting and there was, it now has become voting, campaigning, fundraising, this Qassim protesting and street protests and demonstrations, bully cards, online organizations. And so that, that has been a lot, a lot more than before. And what this has led to is as led out of disciplines into the study of political activism, including protests. So way back in today's political scientist were the only one, then sociologists join in and now media studies people also join in because now we have digital activism. And so hardly you study the input or the, the impact I should say. How do you say that? The impact of Twitter on changing people's minds. And so there are different studies. We'll use quantitative data of number of tweets and how many people, you know, see and read those tweets and what are now they actually would contribute to change part of people's opinion. And so this as expanded a lot and as this as expanded, as become a lot more relevant. And the weight participation, um, changes policies with that research of, of protests, are there particular kinds of protests that are either more effective? Like I'm thinking about, so for organizers that might be listening or thinking about organizing, we're in a particular cause. Are there particular kinds of protests that are more powerful or work better than others? Or is it purely a circum circumstantial depending on the context. So I will say, or regionally and [inaudible] we would say size and cause matter. And so if you have a good cause that makes sense to most people and you have a good number of people supporting it, that will be effective, that you will meet, you'll be able to make an impact nowadays, both size and cause can actually be generated. Uh, you can work on generating both of them. And so for size, uh, email, listing a newsletters, uh, online recruiting nowadays it's all mine. You can find 10 thousands of supporters of any cause online. And the reason behind that is because you know, limited anymore to your, your own neighborhood. It's not only about who leaves around you, how to reach them, ease about the entire planet. You find supporters and donors all over the planet. And so doesn't matter what causes there, you will find people will help you. You just giving you five bucks because they liked the fact that you don't like for instance, um, you parking fees being created for downtown Portland. And so people from Seattle, we'll say, listen, I experienced the same. I didn't like it either. Here go 10 bucks to help your cause do something with that so you can maybe change your situation. So that's very common. At the same time, this ability to reach out to several million people or the same time if you're lucky, as also created situations where causes are imagined are created, but they're not there. So to give you just a silly examples and I can, I had just made up banana flavor ice cream. Okay. So I can say, you know what? I think banana planters and farmers in Central America are being exploited and abused by multinational corporations such as Monsanto. And so you need to stop eating banana flavor ice cream. Okay. And you will find people who will buy in. Now my ex explanation of the cause may not be the reality of the situation. And may be that there, there is actually a competitor of mine who was producing banana flavor ice cream. And so you end up actually helping me selling my own strawberry flavor ice cream and hindering and damaging the other person who was selling. But on a flavor of ice cream. No one will notice. Very few people will understand this, but because the cause has been explained in a specific way and it's difficult than most people will have the resources or the to find the real situation that anyone really will understand why they're supporting this cause in area and what they're doing well they are doing with this gauze. So I've seen those situations too. And um, I'm sure many auto organizers, I've seen this where people are misled. They think they're doing a lot of the good and in reality they're doing not really that good. And the one you explained to them, the situation, they start pausing for a second and they want, they want to see more evidence. Um, but it's difficult to do this online. So there's the whole discussion about fake news. And so very few people see something alive that he's suspicious would actually question it if they like it. And so I had an example yesterday. So because of Brexit, so I studied Europe and so when he comes to Brexit, anyone has posted everything and anything online that can come up with it. And so two days ago there was allegedly this tweet from Donald Tusk and Donald Tusk for maybe if you don't know it is the precedent of the European Council is it was clearly not his official. It's official Twitter handle handler to the handle. Um, those who follow your politics immediately saw, this is not an altos, this is not the Twitter handle handle on to us, but many of the people online retweeted us because everyone thought this is don. I'll dusk. And so the message was that the European Union was about to actually help the UK run their own elections so they could run the elections for the European Parliament. Honestly, it was fate. It was false. Everyone who studies European politics knows a little bit about elections and knows that there's no way the European Union will ever help any country. And it was a member to run its own elections. But people who like the idea, yeah, we still in the EU, they started re re tweeting this and so forth. So on. And every single time I've seen multiple times the official EU account on Twitter replying to this. And so listen, this is not the official hand off Donald Tusk and still people kept returning over and over again. And this is not, we're not talking about trolls here. These are, these were not trolls. These were people will just welcome the news. And so they just retweet it just to spread the news.
Benn Marine 23:07
In your mind, what is the role of social media?
Francesca Vassallo 23:09
It's a good question. As usual, when a new tool shows up, no one asks the good questions first. They always realize that there were good questions should have been asked. No one asked them. Um, corporations were now in charge of those social media tools. Have found themselves in big troubles because of this problem. Um, with people misleading on social media. I think social media certainly as a very good potential to actually organize people, um, politically and socially for example, for different causes. But at the same time, um, it gives people anonymity. It's more likely that someone will post anonymously than not. So when you talk to someone in person, it's fairly safe to say that the, the discussion will be different than a discussion on social media just because you're dealing with someone face to face and you're talking with someone face to face. On social media anonymity, um, often leads to stupid stupidity. And so people just go off and start making comments or conclusions that they will never really make generally in person. And so that's part of the problem. People call it civility. That's part of the issue, civility. But also it's part of communication and discussions with others. And to some people communicating on social media, it's easier to communicate in person. And so, and I think there, there are plenty of studies now about the amount of time people spend on social media and what are, this is good or bad for a person's life to spend so many hours every day on social media. And so, um, I think social media is useful but should be used with caution. And so you should understand the limitations of what you're doing
Benn Marine 24:52
In, in regards to social media and the role with social capital and political activism. Can you just talk a little bit about social capital and its role with political activism and then how, if, or maybe it doesn't at all if social media fits into that?
Francesca Vassallo 25:08
So social media as a good potential to create social capital. Social capital is, um, the development of mutual trust within a group of people, especially a group of people with diverse backgrounds. And that was the original intention of this, uh, research on social capital. The idea is that you can actually get people to work together productively in a positive way if they have a high level of trust for each other. That's what really creates that foundation of, of productivity. Um, and this is generally true, but in order to retain social capital, the trust needs, needs, needs to remain there because otherwise people will simply just stop believing what they're doing. So it's possible to use social media to create social trust. It's called like e-social trust, a digital version of social trust. It's not clear to this day. What are the level of trust developed through social media use is as strong as the level of trust you develop by engaging personally face to face with someone else. Um, I want to be skeptical and maybe it's not, but other people have the opposite opinion. I have to say it. People think that if I talked to someone on another continent every night for six months and I start trusting this person cause we talk about everything together, then why should I not trust the person and instead trust someone who are, who I see once a week. And so if you develop the level of trust, you develop the trust. How this trust is developed is irrelevant. So if you can do it online, you can do it online. If you can do it offline, you can do it offline. But social capital is useful if it engages individuals from different backgrounds. And so the ideal example that is used especially historically is uh, some type of sports team. So children playing a sport together, soccer. So they play soccer together once a week on a Saturday. Uh, these are people from all over town. Their parents like soccer their children like soccer, so they signed them up for this soccer program. And they are from all over, all over town, different neighborhoods, different social classes, different background, different races and so forth, so on, different political views. But they altogether play soccer once a week, two hours on Saturdays, week after week after week. These students, these children on the soccer team, we got together, we got along. And so will the parents to some extent, you know, unless they become competitive because maybe they play a league, of some sort, but if they don't play in a league, its just for fun, there will not be any problem. But the issue is that if they play together over and over and over again, it doesn't really matter where they come from. You know, what neighborhood you live in, it doesn't really matter what your race is, doesn't really matter what your religion is. It matters, It matters that you play next to me and you score the goal on my team. That's all that matters. And that's what creates the trust. Everything else, it does not matter because I only see you as a soccer player. We talk about that. We go out after the game, we, we eat pizza together. We go to each other's birthday parties, whatever. And that's the best example of social capital in children as well in adults. So intramural leagues, right, that they used to be very popular, um, were excellent examples of social capital in which people really got together, you know, uh, playing basketball after work. Who one was a lawyer and the other one was a mailman. Uh, the other one was a tax collector, whatever, but they all play basketball for an hour and a half after work, twice, twice a week. And that's what created the mutual trust. They all talk together about mutual common problems. They would experience traffic in town, you know, taxes and whatever. That created the trust and that created the commitment to make it work to work together. However, recently we have seen a lot, it was being addressed as the dark side of social capital, which has groups that are built on exclusionary purposes, not inclusionary purposes. And so you are still getting together, but the problem is that you're not getting together to do something everyone wants to do for fun. You're getting together to do something that is the only purpose of the group and only certain people are allowed into the group. And so originally the worst case scenario, of social capital, was a cult and so a cult is a group of people from different backgrounds ideally, but everyone is fixated of a specific type of leader that they want through revere or praise or whatever. And so that become a very, something become a type of practice that is consuming and then prevents the members of the group to actually engage with each other on equal terms with mutual respect. And that's the difference in this version of social capital. So this version of social capital creates a bond but it's not bridging differences. It's actually denying all differences. Whereas the first version of of social capital, the intramural basketball team is the type of social capital of these bridging differences and creating bonds at the same time. And that's the one that creates the most political participation
Benn Marine 30:26
When organizers are thinking about social capital and building capacity and building out their teams. And I think especially in the United States, in the current polarization that we're seeing and thinking about, you mentioned bridging, uh, trying to build those spaces of bridging. It sounds like it's really about just creating activities that people can do together, right? Like reading groups or things like that, right? Like, I mean are, would you have any suggestions for folks on, on ways to kind of build those bridging spaces?
Francesca Vassallo 30:55
So in some cases there's, there is a need for commitment to build a new bridge in space, for example. And so once in a while you see this that sponsored events where they invite different speakers on the same topic and they want to engage the citizens in the city, uh, to present their opinions on a topic in a very civil matter. And so people will have different opinions, for instance, on whether or not to, um, to pay for a social benefits for immigrants as an example. And so the city council may invite, uh, those that support this and those who are against it and tried to find commonalities. And what are the limits that they experienced at the type of obstacles they have to face that metric. But a lot of times it's actually a lot simpler than dads. And so for instance, um, allowing everyone into a library, a public library, for example. Um, one of the things I've discovered in the U s is that public library, they scream the type of books they buy. And so many citizens, uh, probably like public libraries everywhere. They welcome their readers to submit requests for new books to buy. That's what they want. It's easier for them to do this rather than going out there and finding the books. But unfortunately, more and more often nowadays, public libraries, cream, whatever books are bought because they're afraid that if you buy a book and people start reading this book, come to the library to read this book, which is considered to be controversial for example, and then obviously, um, you are perceived as being partisan and consequently the library will suffer from this and public support. So of the examples that come up often is, uh, last year the, the book fire and fury, I think it was a title on president Trump. And so some public libraries refused to buy the book because they said, you know, if I buy this book number one, this book will be, uh, easily destroyed. But by many of the readers here around that, we'll take the book, break the book. And so I'm going to have to buy new copies over and over again. And number two, um, if I do at this will be used often against the library when the library needs to get a budget passed, uh, from the city council. And so there will be able to show up against the budget against passing the budget for the library public library because we bought this specific block and consequently we are parties on because of the size of the buy this book when libraries by books, all books just based on suggestions from readers, anyone can go there and make a suggestion and they collect all the suggestions and often they just go down the list of suggestions based upon the, the budgets they have available. And that's it. That's all they do. But unfortunately, um, if libraries, for example, public libraries where simply just saying yes to all books without really screening whatever they buy, I think more people will be visiting the library and more people, maybe it will be engaging with other people in the library. There's just a simplest type of example I can give you. So this is kind of shifting gears
Benn Marine 34:05
quite a bit here and it's a little bit off topic from what what we've been discussing, but I'm curious. So as a, as a professor, you work with a lot of students, you're, you're supporting those students. You also, I mean, as I said, I've got a list of over like a dozen publications here. Uh, so you're obviously juggling a lot of other professional responsibilities too. I'm curious for folks that are I think very frequently juggling multiple projects, what are some strategies that you have for keeping those things organized and efficiencies?
Francesca Vassallo 34:31
I think the best political organizers are people who are, um, who have experience in organizing different tasks in their lives and in their personal and professional lives. So often what I recommend to anyone out there, including my student, is to be clear with the type of goals they have in mind. What is my goal for this week? What is my goal for this month? What is my goal for the semester and political organizer? Often they have a, a goal and a deadline that is given to them. And so they, they, they, they know they can only choose it. They have this deadline of this election on this day and that's what they have to accomplish. So they got a good deadline and a good goal. The question is that how do you break down your work week after week after week to actually accomplish that? I make sure that you are what you need the night before the election. It takes motivation. It's difficult to accomplish your goals without motivation. It's fundamental for many movements. And you will see that sometimes I see a movement that had no real force behind and yet they managed them get something done. And I'm the first one to be surprised. Like, wow, these three people who are very resilience and very persuasive, they still manage to the guests. This little bit done. I would never said that this would it be possible. And then these three people actually got it done. So motivation is really key. Believe in what you're doing is really key to give you energy. It's so silly. But the reality is, you know, you can drink coffee, you can eat well, but without the motivation you still don't have 100% energy. What gives you energy is the motivation that trumps easily being tired, being sick, being these appointed all the time. It's fairly useful. So motivation is number one. Next, I would think I'm being realistic about what you want to accomplish because it's very, you know, very movements, especially student movements nowadays. Um, they're not necessarily well informed. They are very super motivated and that's fine, that's excellent but unnecessarily very well informed. And so they think they want to accomplish something that you already know. People are very informed, they know this is impossible just to do it. You know, there's no way we can do desk, desk and desk. You know, you can do a little bit of this in this way, but do that, you're going to have to do it another way now. That's why. Okay, so you know, just because you are appealing to someone who is in charge, it doesn't mean that person has the authority to do what you want them to do. And so forth. So on. So that's also part of the problem. So be realistic about what you think it can get done. And sometimes this require the discussion without her, um, individuals, uh, who are part of the movement, you know, get someone who is informed about how to do things, get a consultant of some sorts who can guide you about how do we get this done? First of all, is that realistic to get this done? Can we do something else that is similar? Or maybe this is step one for a while we get done and so forth. So on. And so that's number two, being realistic. Number one, motivation. Number two, being realistic. Number three, you need a team. So you need out of people to work with you. You know, I never found a person was perfect doing everything. It's just not possible. Everyone has his or her own specialty and the way they actually get things done. And some of them are often very, uh, in very sad, very effective, impressively effective. I will say sometimes I met people and when I spend time with these people, they were not impressive to me. But as somehow they managed to get it all done and I wasn't proud, I couldn't understand how is that possible. This person cannot even figure out how to put his shoes on and then suddenly he got this book down in, in two months. How's that possible? And it's possible, you know, some individuals have different types of specialties and gifts that allows them to do, to be better, um, with some tasks than others. And so that's, that's a make sure you have a team in which you specialize in what works for you and your great, uh, doing that. And other people need to specialize on auto things in the team so that you have, um, a strong group of individuals who can be prepared to do anything they want to do. So these three suggestion I would make, but vision, being realistic, having a team,
Benn Marine 38:56
you've done a lot of research and writing around France in particular and protest movements and just kind of the culture of protest in France. I'm curious what makes a France so unique and what can organizers, I both in the United States but maybe in other parts of the world learn from that culture of protest.
Francesca Vassallo 39:19
So in some way this is very stereotypical and there is, why is France such a great example of a college for a protest? And more often than not, the real answer is the French revolution. Uh, so they realize one day if you kill the king thinks will happen. So if you go ballistic immediately and you make sure everyone is afraid, they will pay attention. And so literally some people say that's how far he goes. That's why individual I saw active and they believe in protests immediately. Often many union discussions and negotiations with business partners even before the reason meeting to discuss about possible pay raises, for example, there was a strike. It's the first step on the list of what to do first, one day of strike. That's how you start this discussions and negotiations to remind your auto side across from you on the table or the table that you mean business. They're not here to do anything. You would just really here because we are ready to take any actions we feel needed to actually make a point. The best example of this is the French farmers. The French farmers are a very small group of people in France. I will say 2% of the population, they're not doing well financially and this is his gaze across other countries. But um, they are making the point about needing subsidies are going to cultural, subdued subsidies to the government and to the European Union very clearly. How do they do it? They don't spend time talking cause they got work to do and so they drive their tractor with manure to Brussels and they're lucky because Brussels in Belgium, but it's only 90 minutes from Paris. And so they drive the tractor with manure to Brussels and they dump all this manure right at the, at the door of European Union institutions and agencies and they leave. Um, and they do the eat at least once a year, sometimes twice a year and so forth. So on to make the point, you know, we're not going to hear to discuss with you about why so expensive to pay agricultural subsidies, why it's untie global. Uh, I anti-trade laws to pay subsidies to farmers. We're just not going to discuss it. This is our position. Are you going to pay us for milk? You're going to pay us for eggs so you're going to pay us for meat and whatever. And so th that's how they operate. That's their level of commitment of political engagement. You know, they also talked to parties, but much less parties in France are afraid of the farmers were only 2% of the population and every single party in March, there is an agricultural fear in Paris. They show up there, I think you're shoot agricultural fear and every single political leader of the matters show up there and pet their cows. And there are photos posted everywhere. Videos posted everywhere to show as a political leader of my party, I care about, about farmers and their cows and he, you're patting their cows. We get photos for that every single march of every year in Paris. That's what's going on. And the only 2% of the population, but they made the points. Now there's this culture because it is successful. That's why people keep doing them. So student movements in France, right? So most of the student movements in France, and I'm talking about high school movements, by the way, not only college high school movements, 15 1617 years old, most of the student's movement in France between the 1970s and the early two thousands can officially correctly claim that they managed to fire the minister of education in France, their protests over and over again about increasing tuition, changing curriculum and what have you often as caused the that minister to resign or to be kicked out of the government by them, by the prime minister because the government has a sick and tire of this protest and a regular basis. And so the best way to solve this is to just eliminate the minister of the occasion. And so they keep doing it because it works. That's why every single time they keep doing and it's expected. So if you don't like something, you better show up on the streets. Started yelling cause otherwise no one will listen. So while, because I would think that the more you protest meeting people are like, they can start to kind of block it out or just becomes background noise becomes less effective. But it's, but it, so it sounds like it is still making change. W what is, how is that? Because they feel, so I think about, uh, like here in the United States, uh, got a gun, the gun movement, right? Like the, especially with all the school shootings and all these things, and there's these, you know, these marches and protests and these incredibly talented and brilliant kids speaking out and, and there have been some wins. There's certainly been some wins. So I, you know, I want to celebrate those and collars out for sure. And on the national level, there's been very little movement. Well, I think for once they vote more so voting turnout is higher, including a younger age. And, uh, parties, um, are afraid that if they're going to alienate younger voters, they will lose them for good. And so they will not listen to them. In the US, there's been some good victories at the state level in certain states where were politicians and governments and those at the state level listened at the federal government because the composition of government at the federal level situation is still very different. It's not that easy, but it can easily be easy with quick change. And so, um, it's, it's clear, you know, when you see a presidential turnovers, for example, right in this country, um, that for the previous four years, this was very, very, very bad and suddenly this become very, very good and it's immediately approved. And so you have this quick reversals of positions just because of a new precedent or a new congress, especially both when they're both in line. Things happen very, very quickly. In the case of Maine Medicaid expansion and so forth for four years, uh, the governor refused to actually allow this medicaid expansion. There was a referendum where people, he mean by 60%, I believe they approved Medicaid expansion. Um, and eventually what made the difference was, and your governor who agree with that and there was not of story. And so that's the situation. Even friends, political parties are more concerned about voters and there are more younger voters than there are in this country. And this kind of, we'd go back to the fact that younger voters, uh, not yet at the levels they should be, especially because older generations, number one, the always show up to vote. You know, older people over 60, they're voting probability is easily 80%. This means that they're 80% sure that we'll show up to vote either before the election, through proxy ballot or absentee ballot or the day of the election. It doesn't matter what the obstacles are. Over 60, they will vote because they know the consequences. If they understand the consequences illegally to dem. If some of the governments, some of the party won the election, they don't want that. So, so that's why they really make sure younger individuals under thirties, they mean well, but I have to say on average, don't take it personally. They are a mess. Um, they, they get sidetracked. They get a lost delayed. I plan to vote and choose day and I actually overslept. Uh, I got too much to do today. I cannot vote. I can now stay in line for 20 minutes. I gotta go back to work. Um, older individuals, it's now simply because they are better organized, they have better motivated to do it. And so whatever happens that day, you know, they do it. I know store, um, they're not concerned about anything else. I decided to vote. I want to vote, I will vote. And many older voters, they do vote through opposite the ballot before Election Day cause they're done. We're done. I'm done. Good. Um, younger voters a lot more, a lot less likely to do that. They wait until the day of the election. Sometimes you have to provide transportation. We're likely to younger voters and then older voters. Um, and that's also the real, the real issue. We go back to this simple
Benn Marine 48:01
situation. I think too, I want to point out, uh, for folks that are listening that might not be familiar or something. And I think this really emphasizes why making vote plans with voters is so important. Uh, that there've been a ton of studies that show that if you actually make a plan with a voter, they are far more likely to show up, especially with those younger voters. So making sure that folks know not only that they're going to go, but when they're going to go, how they're going to get there with the rest of their day looks like, are they going to go before work, after work? Are they going with a friend? Are they going with a parent? Just making sure that folks have really thought through all those pieces really does help increase the vote turnout. And so those I think are things that organizers really want to keep in mind when it does come to turning out the vote. Um,
Francesca Vassallo 48:45
anything I should have asked that I didn't ask or anything you want to add? I think this past decade a lot has been going on in political organizations. Um, parties are not necessarily as important as they used to be, but now we have new movements. There are very, very important. And these new movements are able to push parties in certain directions and that's really, really good. And so parties, once you are a party, you tend to sit down a little bit cause the of your structure, your, your income flow so to speak. And so because of that you tend to be a bit more conservative. And the idea is that, okay, so I have my donors as long as I don't under, they don't alley named Mike by donor or some fine and people who should not be four, it will show up again instead with the new movements and new people contributing from outside the party, I think a lot more innovation will take place and a lot more new policies will take place because people now are more able to um, pertain the attention of political parties in realizing wall. Um, this is what we ask you to do. So did you do it? Because otherwise we will actually run someone against you even if I like you, but you know, you do. If you don't do what I said he will do, then we're in trouble here. I want someone who really does what we want you to do. It doesn't mean that every single tie, the party will say yes, but it means that the party will pay more attention. And so there will be a lot more incorporation of ideas from outside the party into the party, which is a big problems for all parties across countries. Parties tend to be very lazy. They don't want to actually risk it. You know, am I going to try something new? Am I going to try and sell the new hi my jet. Oh, am I justifying us, for instance, to my old borders. Um, and so they need to be pushed towards new decisions, new policies, New Vision consistently. Because if they don't in their interest, if they don't, they die. And so parties are being lost and being really lost the law because of the US. Um, the socialist government was in control of friends up until 2017 they had about 40% of the national vote. And then there's a new election and the went down to about 10% of actual vote because the new left, they were not heard by the socialists, the social display, the different type of card, and then you left said, no, no, no. This is not who we you wanted to be, so we want something new. The Democratic Party is not trying to listen a lot more than before and we've seen this started with a 2016 campaigns. Awesome. Thank you so much. I really appreciate, really appreciate your time.
Benn Marine 51:36
Thank you so much for tuning in this week. If you want to know more about professor of a Solow, I will link to her bio on the University of southern Maine website in the show notes as well as list out all of the different publications seasons that you can find those in your local public library. To access these show notes, simply visit ocean of organizing.com and then go into podcast and you'll see the different episodes listed with their shownotes attached to them. As always, if you're enjoying this content, please subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen. It helps ocean of organizing rank higher, which in turn helps folks like yourself find this content. If you've got feedback from me, things I can do better, or things you want to hear more of or less of, let me know while you're at the ocean of organizing.com website. Click on that feedback link in the top right and let me know how I can better serve you. Thank you. I appreciate you. Be well.
