Building a Nonprofit for Consent Education with Shane Diamond

April 18, 2019

Shane Diamond is the founder of Speak About It, a nonprofit that brings sexual assault prevention and consent education to high school juniors, seniors, and college freshmen. What began as an acting gig in a 2009 college performance turned into nine years of building an organization from the ground up — one built on asking questions, learning from mentors, and finding the people who'd already solved problems he hadn't hit yet.

In this conversation, Shane and Benn cover a lot of ground: how Speak About It grew from a single campus show into a program that's reached almost 300,000 students, the shift from "no means no" to "yes means yes" and why that reframe mattered, and the hard, honest work of scaling from performer to executive director. Shane talks openly about burnout, why he stepped away from the organization he built, and the self-care practices — boundaries, ebb-and-flow scheduling, and knowing when to log off — that kept him in the work as long as he was. He also digs into the discomfort of asking for help, the tension between mission focus and chasing funding, and what he's learned about consent as, at its core, a practice of kindness and respect.

Show Notes:

In this Episode Shane Diamond the founder of Speak About it sits down with me to talk about how he launched an organization that has presented to over 300,000 high school juniors, seniors, and college freshmen across the country and around the world about sexual assault prevention and consent. He shares with us wisdom from starting something new, launching an organization, the language around consent, growing in leadership, asking for help, self care, and soo much more.

This month, April, is Sexual Assault Awareness and Prevention Month!! So be sure to check out some of the incredible organizations doing this work below (especially Speak About It) and consider supporting their work with a financial gift if you are able.

Below are links to all the different resources that Shane mentioned in this interview.

Speak About it Website – You can also check them out on their facebook page for their latest happenings. Note! That they have a super FUN fundraiser coming up next week! It’s called “Cirque Du Oh Yay! An Affirmative Consent Carnival” to benefit Speak About It. General admission is $30 and they have a discounted rate to make sure that the event is accessible to more folks at a price point of $15. Check out their event page for more information.

Maine Coalition Against Sexual Assault (MECASA) – If you are looking for immediate support you can call them at 1-800-871-7741, you can also reach them at that number via text if that is more accessible to you Mon-Fri from 8am – 5pm. Their phone support is available 24/7, these folks are doing excellent work here in the state of Maine, especially around sex trafficking, children’s advocacy, and supporting LGBTQ survivors of sexual violence.

SCORE – Is a 501c(3) non-profit and is an incredible resource for anyone who is looking to start a new organization and learn new strategies for directions they can take their existing organization, whether you’re a non-profit, a business, or a hybrid model. Shane leaned on SCORE in the creation of Speak About It. They give free advice, they can pair you with a mentor that can be a sounding board for you and help guide you along the way. Also, in case you’re curious (because I definitely was) the acronym SCORE stands for Service Corp of Retired Executives.

Maine Association of Non-profits (MANP) – Offers great resources to non-profits. Also, if you live in Maine, they do have a jobs board where non-profits can list different job opportunities they have so definitely check that out if you’re looking for work or exploring options that are out there.

Blue Avocado – This is a magazine for non-profits by the Nonprofits Insurance Alliance. They have a lot of great articles and content worth checking out if you work in a non-profit, aspire to, or are working on building your own.

Sexual Assault Response Services of Southern Maine (SARSSM) – They have a helpline 1-800-871-7741 if you need support or know someone who does.

National Sexual Violence Resource Center – These folks have a lot of really great resources, based out of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Note they have a National Sexual Assault Conference called BEYOND THE BREAKTHROUGH happening August 21-23, 2019. Registration is now open if you’re interested. They are also part of the Pennsylvania Coalition Against Rape (PCAR) that Shane had also mentioned.

Rape Abuse Incest National Network (RAINN) – These folks are an incredible resource to folks in the work and also to survivors and the people that care about them. If you are needing support you can call them at 800.656.HOPE (4673) or you can chat with them here.

California Coalition Against Sexual Assault (CALCASA) – These folks do have some neat online webinars and resources for folks to check out as well.

National Association of Student Personnel Administrators NASPA – These are the folks that Shane mentioned host a national conference, the NASPA Sexual Violence Prevention and Response Conference, every year in January in Washington DC on sexual assault prevention. This year, it took place from Jan 17th to the 19th. Keep your eyes on their website for information about their 2020 conference.

Colorado Coalition Against Sexual Assault (CCASA) – They are co-hosting the 8th annual Colorado Advocacy in Action Conference right around the corner on June 5-7, 2019 in Vail. They are co-hosting it with Violence Free Colorado. Definitely looks like something worth checking out.

If you’re currently doing any kind of sexual assault prevention work and don’t see your organization listed, drop me a note through the feedback form with the details on what you’re doing and how folks can be in touch with you and I will gladly add you to this list of resources.

• Transcript

  Benn Marine 0:08

  Okay, welcome to the ocean of organizing podcast where every week we explore different ways to build community and create change. In this week's episode, I sat down with my friend Shane Diamond, the founder of speak about it, speak about it, is a nonprofit doing sexual assault prevention work with high school juniors, seniors and college freshmen. Shane shares with us what it's like to launch a nonprofit and build an organization from scratch. We also talk about self care, sexual assault prevention, asking for help and so much more. I should also note there is some mild use of explicit language and sexual assault. So if you have listeners around that maybe would prefer not to hear that language now would be a good time to throw on some headphones. And with that, let's dive on in. What got you started with organizing?

  Shane Diamond 1:16

  My roots and organizing came a sort of through a backdoor channel. Um, I was, I certainly didn't identify as, as any type of organizer activist at that point, but I was asked in college in 2009 to be an actor in this, uh, inaugural version of this performance called speak about it. Uh, that was talking about consent and sexuality and sexual assault prevention in a way that was addressing healthy sexuality. And I was tapped to be a one of the performers in that, not because I have any particular acting experience, but, and I'm gregarious and good on the stage and I was a little bit typecast as the gay athlete Jew. Um, and that sort of, that was my entree into the world of organizing.

  Benn Marine 2:00

  So you then went on and turned speak about it into like an organization into itself. How, what like inspired you to do that. And what did that process look like?

  Shane Diamond 2:11

  I realized at that time that nobody was talking about consent and healthy sexuality in a way that acknowledged that sex is fun and that sexuality is fluid and fun and we should be having conversations about it. And all of the rhetoric in 2009 was here all the ways you can hurt someone here, all the ways you can ruin this and have terrible sex and, and be awful. And I saw this niche that we could do this the right way and say, listen, you can get drunk and want to make out. That's okay. It's how you communicate about it. That's the kicker. And so, um, when I graduated from college 2010, I sat down with the dean of students and the President of the college and I said, I want to take this and have it be everywhere. And they were like, okay. And I was like, wait, what? And so it was, the organization really started at that point in 2010 trying to, t o, c ause we knew we had the niche, the niche was talking about healthy sexuality with young people at this point w ith, with college freshmen. Um, so that people would enjoy what was happening. You know, you're, it's, you're not going to tell a bunch of college kids, Hey, don't go to parties and don't sleep with strangers and don't do the two of those things at the same time. That's not g onna work. Right. People are going to shut you out. So understanding that people were g oing t o choose to be sexual, choose to have sexual relationships and maybe choose to drink and sometimes those two things in interlap, right, Intersect and that influences how we can communicate and how w e can consent. How can we speak to that audience in a way that is going to resonate so that people A have better sex and B, don't hurt each other.

  Benn Marine 3:41

  That's awesome. And so, so the school said, Yep, go ahead. Was that hard to navigate? Like did you even know where to start or how like just the actual structural putting it together.

  Shane Diamond 3:53

  Yeah, no, those first couple of years I called my ass from elbow phase because I had no idea was going on. Um, and I think that's part of organizing, right? Like, if like, generally if you're organizing to do something, it's because something is missing, right? Nobody's organizing to like make the status quo, right? You're organizing because there's something that's not present that we're trying to change. And so it hasn't been done before and a lot of situations. So it is really hard to follow that path when you're sort of making it up as you're walking it. Um, but in those early days it was all about asking questions and making connections. The first connection I made, I used to be a Barista at a coffee shop and I was talking about speak about it and what I wanted to do with it. And this guy was like, oh, he used to be on the board of directors for SARSSM, the sexual assault response services of southern Maine. And he was like, let me put you in touch with ED. And I was like, dope. So he introduces me and I meet her and she was like, you know, I was just talking to somebody at USM about trying to bring a program like this. Let me make an introduction. And I was like, dope. And so I emailed the, the then contact of the campus safety project, um, to try to get, speak about it in to USM. And, um, she had heard of me through an Admin at my college. And so it all sort of came full circle, but it was, it's all about asking questions and recognizing, you know, there are a lot of things I'm good at and there are a lot of things that people are much better than me at doing. I actually met with, um, a score mentor, I can't remember what it's called, something something small businesses, something something, but asking questions, right? Like, because I didn't know what I was doing and there were things that I thought were good ideas that turned out to be horrible ideas. Nobody would let me give out Koozies to college kids that's had consent logos on them or consent, um, slogans. And I was like, this is a great idea. And I was like, dude, you can't give Koozies on a college campus to 18 year old kids. And I was like, oh, right. Um, so is that those first days, especially where a lot of asking questions and learning from people around me who had done something similar, who'd done something before, you know, maybe not necessarily what I was doing directly, but you know, folks who were, had done violence prevention, who had done violence prevention on college campuses, what can I learn from them? Um, what can I learn from people about starting businesses? What can I learn? You know, someone who knows more about accounting and taxes, like who do I know in my life that could help me with the backend things? And so it was all just asking questions for the things I didn't know the answers to.

  Benn Marine 6:12

  In terms of that, what were some of the biggest lessons or things that like if, if somebody came to you were like, Hey, I want to start this thing, uh, do you have any like, like one or two things that were like, oh my gosh, definitely do this or definitely don't do that. Yeah, that's a great question. I think anytime someone comes to me and wants to start a thing, my question is always, is it, is there something out there that's already doing this? Um, and if it is, are you trying to do it better? Are you competing? Can you join forces with them? Can you do something different? Right? Like if you have an idea that you want to give out Turkey sandwiches to sixth graders, is there a nonprofit or a group or somebody out there who's giving out Bologna sandwiches to fifth graders? You know what I mean? Like if you're going to spend all this time and energy organizing and doing something and trying to make a difference, do your research to see if there's something already out there because there's no need to reinvent the wheel. And maybe it means you tweak your idea or maybe it means you team up with this other existing group right now. Um, but it's always good to know the market, right? To know what else is out there. So it's not oversaturated cause why would people give their support behind your Turkey sandwiches as opposed to the Bologna sandwiches? You know what I mean? Um, and the other thing that I would say when getting something off the ground is you're going to make mistakes. That's how we learn, right? We make mistakes and we have to learn. I was, I played college ice hockey and as a kid playing like going to hockey camps, they would say that if you, um, if you don't fall down, you weren't trying hard enough. And we say this to all of our actors is that we expect you to push yourselves and to make mistakes and fall down and let us, let your team be the padding like the rest of your actors, um, be the padding that keeps you from breaking all your bones. You know what I mean? It's an understanding that like you are going to fall down. You're going to make mistakes when you do something new. The goal is to try to make small mistakes and not to make them repeatedly, but understand that like you're going to have failures, you're going to have mistakes and what can you learn from those and move forward once, once you were up and running and doing things. Especially, I think now in the context of like me too movement. How has that impacted some of the work that, that speak about? It's has been up to, well to be fair, I left six months ago so I can speak, speak to the history of the organization up until six months ago. They have been doing a lot of great work since then, but I'm not, I'm just not as privy to it. Um, I mean we were sort of at the forefront of the yes means yes movement. I remember when I, so I was looking at colleges in 2006 and everybody was talking about the blue light system, which was you should be able to see a blue emergency light from another blue emergency lights on every campus. Uh, and what this sort of was about, it was like if someone is jumping out from the bushes, you should be able to see an emergency phone at all times. This is also before cell phones really. But this whole idea of like ways to protect yourself and it's a stranger in the bushes as opposed to like, Hey, maybe don't rob people or assault people or jump out of the bushes. And so the rhetoric at that point was all this no means no. Right? Like I said this earlier, um, all this no means no. We were really trying to be the yes means yes group that don't instead of going until you hear stop. It's don't start until you hear it. Yes. And what does that mean and how do you have that conversation? Hey, I think you're really cute. I had a lot of fun tonight. Every like to kiss you. Is that okay? Right. Like even if I don't want to kiss that person, like that is very flattering to hear and saying no to that isn't super hard because you know, maybe I had a great time too and it's giving people all this language. And so I think, you know, especially in the past few years as this is becoming more and more of the dialogue, I think any good organizer would tell you that the fight changes. And so our fight at the beginning was to get people to think about this and yes means yes contexts. And we used to, we, we put language about consent and every show. So if we go to Harvard, we might've make jokes about Yale and say like, you know, here at Harvard, these are the people. And like here at Harvard, this is what it means to get consent. And then we'd go to Yale and make fun of Harvard. Um, and it's, you know, I think that's, I like being able to do the customizable script. It's obviously more work on our, on the back end, but when we started, very few school, very few schools that we worked with had consent policies. All of it. They, a lot of schools have definitions about sexual assault, but no one was saying what affirmative, enthusiastic consent was. And this was only in like 2011, 2012 so this wasn't that long ago. Um, that there was no rhetoric around consent. And now, you know, it's 2019. We all know that consent is good and sexual assault is bad, but we're still having this conversation. So clearly something isn't catching right. And so our job as organizers is to evolve and sort of meet people where they're at, right? So eight years ago, nobody knew what consent was. Now people you know, know what consent is, and I'm using air quotes. We obviously don't know what consent is if we're still assaulting each other, um, people getting assaulted and raping, reaping in the people, right? So like maybe that's not necessarily the case. So how do we get to that 200 level? Okay. You've heard about consent. So what are some barriers to asking for consent? You know, why are we still having this conversation? Let's talk about gender stereotypes. Let's talk about masculinity and femininity and what's expected of us. Let's talk about, you know, how this plays out with alcohol. Let's talk about the role of alcohol. Let's talk about the role of pleasure and why we're afraid of pleasure. You know, like let's dig into our puritan roots. And so I think it's, you know, the conversation is evolving because it has to, because if it wasn't evolving, we would have fixed it. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's, that's super real. Um, and so you had mentioned that you, you left six months ago. Uh, I'm curious too about, again, you know, if you're open to talking about it, that did that decision to leave and, um, and like what self care looks like and what self care has looked like, like even while you were, cause how long were you involved with, with speak about it? Yeah. Um, I got involved with the work in 2009, so it was nine years, but I did it. Um, I think when I was doing the work, um, you learn to be empathetic but not take it to the heart. Like you have to have some boundaries because I would be at bars, at airports, at a bookstore. People find out what to do for work and they tell me the worst thing that's ever happened to them. And I'm like, I'm just trying to get a sandwich, you know? Um, so you have to be empathetic, right? And, and we, we teach empathy and we want to be empathetic people. But if I take every single story into my heart and make it my, and have to care for that, that's how we break. And so it's learning how to be empathetic but not making it about me, if that makes sense. And that's, you know, a lot of the self care that I did when I was doing the work. Also, boundaries are great. So I would say that I wouldn't check my email before I had a cup of coffee or after I had a drink. Right. So if I'm going to happy hour, it means I'm done working for that day. So a, I gotta get my stuff done before I go out for a drink and be like, if it's an emergency, don't email me, just call me. I'm giving myself the time in the morning, right? Like nothing is that urgent that I need to be waking up and checking my email. First thing, I'm not a surgeon, I'm not a rocket scientist. Like I'm an organizer, which is good work, but nothing is that urgent. Um, and I chose to leave, not because of any lack of love for the work, but building something and, you know, going all out for eight years and working 60, 80 hours, uh, often, uh, with this type of emotional heavy work and then doing all the fundraising and hiring and firing and training and board relations and writing policies. And, you know, it, I was like, I love this work so much and I can tell, but I'm getting burnt out and the organization deserves better than a tired leader. Um, but the goal was always to have this be something that would outlive me. And what a gift that, you know, my board did a really great job in the search process and found a really rad executive director and she's taking it in directions I never thought of. They actually have a podcast now. Um, they're doing more work with younger audiences, with diverse audiences. You know, our wheelhouse was sort of high school juniors and seniors and then college freshmen. And you know, her vision is different than mine and that feels awesome. So I've taken a break. Uh, I'm not involved in any way we speak about it anymore. I show up at some of the events sometimes, but I needed a break to sort of recharge after what was a lot of, I been in organizing a lot of thankless work. Right? Um, and also being at the top is, is tiring, you know, being the last call, being the top cheese, it was great to be able to make all the decisions and be like three o'clock on a Friday afternoon. It's sunny and gorgeous. Go to the beach or it's three o'clock on a Friday afternoon, it's snowing, go home. You know, being able to make those decisions as great. But when you're faced with all of the big decisions about the direction and the leadership and the what our cultural values and why are we hiring or not hiring this person, right? It's kind of lonely to be at the top. And, um, I was running out of gas and, and frankly, the work deserves the person at the helm to be impassioned. Do you have plans to return to organizing or is it like, nope, I'm gonna listen to my body and when it feels right I'm going to get back into it and what that may or may not look like? No, that's a great question. Um, and that's certainly, I miss that. I miss like having my heart and something and being excited and being able to create change. Um, it's, that's why we do it right. Cause cause we feel good and we get to see the fruits of our labors and how our work and our passion and our direction can create change and make the world a better place. Right. And I think that's what every organizer wants, no matter what the project is. So I definitely miss it. Um, I'm trying to think of like what I'm good at and what I like doing. Um, cause it's hard to be in a position like that if you don't love it. Right? Like you can phone it in for a lot of different things. But when we're talking about organizing and grassroots organizing and nonprofits, it's really hard to fund it. And if you don't align with the mission, if you don't believe in the mission, um, you know, I, I've, I was an athlete for number of years. I loved coaching. That's obviously like not super organized, but, um, you know, being able to impact youth in, in a way that resonates with them. It's finding the channels that, that works with people to communicate. Um, you know, I think I bring a unique perspective to things as a trans guy and, um, there's so much happening right now with, with Trans Youth and Supporting Trans Youth and public restrooms and you know, everyone's rights are sort of constantly being threatened whether we were trans or queer or straight or brown or you know, like it's, it's just a shit show out there. And so I'm trying to think of like what I can do to help people, but that it's coming from a genuine place, you know what I mean? And like, so I can speak to the trans experience. I can speak to my experience being a trans guy and like, how can I influence and impact change in a way that, you know, plucks those heartstrings again. When you, when you think back and reflect on, uh, on, on your time at speak about it, what are some of the most rewarding memories you have? Hmm.

  Shane Diamond 17:19

  Hmm.

  Benn Marine 17:21

  That's, that's a good one. We spoke to almost 300,000 kids under my leadership, which is crazy. Yeah, it was bonkers this past fall. We went to 53 schools in three weeks in 29 states. It was insane. It was, yeah, it was insane. Um, some of the, so I used to act in the show and as I sort of moved higher leadership as I not like, I like was being promoted as I like promoted myself and just more, more of a leadership position and there are more people within the company. Um, I stopped acting and you know, I always said that I didn't get into this work to bounce spreadsheets. You get into it so that you can be forward facing and have an impact and see the results of the work that we're doing. And so not being on stage anymore, it was really hard for me also because I love being the center of attention. I love a microphone. Um, and I realized that nobody would love the work the way that I loved it because I was the founder. And so my job as the founder is to teach people how to find their own passion. And there is a moment with everyone that's ever worked for me where the show is a script and it's a thing that they're doing and we're paying them and they probably have some connection to the sexual assault prevention, but maybe they don't. And every, I think I can say this pretty confidently. I think every person that's ever worked for speak about it hits a point where they stopped doing it because it's a script and they start doing it because they love it and they're speaking from the heart. And being able to share my passion in a way that it becomes other people's passions is really, really incredible. Um, I'm like getting choked up, like just talking about that because we, I had 25 educators this year and watching all of them for my last season, fall in love with this work and find themselves and find parts of themselves they didn't know where there is, is really powerful as a leader, as an organizer. Um, and then of course, you know, the, the students that we work with and having kids come up to us, you know, students, audience members after the show and say, thank you. I never knew it was okay to be queer, you know? Thank you. I didn't know that. Um, I had to get consent for everything and now I want to make sure that I'm being respectful. Thank you. I'm a survivor and you're validating my experience that, that I know that I'm not alone, you know? Thank you. I'm learning how to be an active bystander so that this never has to happen to my friends and seeing the, the lights come on, you know, with these young people that, that they can make a difference. They can create change, they can, you know, use language, um, to, to have better sex and better relationships and feeling empowered to do so. Is, is really, really incredible. You know, you, you mentioned a little bit that transition from acting and being on like center stage front facing to that, moving up in leadership and kind of moving away from that. How did you navigate that transition? I mean I think um, I was going to say I feel like in any company the higher up you get, the further away you get from the customers. I don't know if that's true. That's like the first thing I sort of thought of. Right? Like as you get more responsibility, you're taking away from the ground level and that's why we get into organizing cause cause we like the ground level. Right? Um, so it's time management. It's also like holding people to fair standards that no one is going to deliver the show the way that I did. And it's unfair for them, for me to compare them to me like, oh Shane did it this way, like blah blah blah. You have to do it this way. That's unfair because no one's going to do it the way I do it. No one's going to, you know, do it the way you do it. Um, I think like on a totally personal note, it was knowing that I was still, that I still had an impact even though I wasn't the one directly having the impact. And that's one of the reasons, you know, you talked about time management. That's one of the reasons why I pulled back from acting is cause I was trying to run the nonprofit and have board meetings and fundraise and whatever and also learn all the lines and train new people and then get on stage with them and then travel. And like as much fun as it is to get on the road for two days. You know, they've got to a point where it was two days that I'm not in the office and just getting so behind with all of the other to do things. Um, and so it was sort of the natural progression was that's, you know, where I was going to move, I was going to move up. Um, but it was finding that as I mentioned, it was finding that how do I teach other people and learning how to do that. And you know, I think as you get higher up, the stakes get higher. And I just talking about making mistakes earlier, uh, when you drop a line on stage, that sucks, but it's not gonna make or break it. You know what I mean? But at the higher level, if we're not compensating someone or don't take safety precautions or don't have insurance or you know, don't have enough money to pay people, right? Like those are pretty big problems. And so the state could hire for the mistakes that you make and it's learning how to prioritize those. And not freak out and sometimes they happen. And you know, again, asking questions of folks that know more than you do. I'm curious at any point in that process, did you ever reach out to like maybe other folks in similar roles? Just for even like social support? I'm so glad you asked that. I went to a nonprofit, it was a leadership. I was an executive director of leadership, excuse me. Um, a nonprofit leadership executive director of course, executive director leadership course, uh, that the main association for nonprofits puts on. And it was a nine month course. It was once a month and nonprofits of all different sizes. Um, so we had a relatively small budget, small staff, and then we were in a room with like hospitals who have large, large, large budgets and large staffs in different, um, different goals. And the, what I learned most from that is that it doesn't matter like what size or what growth or what stage are nonprofits and like, we're all sort of a little bit fucked, um, just because of the way that nonprofits run. I'm the executive director, job is inherently more work than one person can ever do because you're managing all of the programmatic aspects of it. So if you're a hospital, you're managing like your staff and the folks that are coming in and making sure you can keep the electricity on and whatever. If you're a nonprofit like me, we're managing all of our educators and the booking and the hiring, you know Preble street, they're managing and making sure that there's food and there's people that can come in and volunteer. And then there's the and board management and really an executive director should be fundraising like 70% of their time. Um, but the reality is most executive directors or fundraising 70% of the time and also running programs at 70% of the time. And so it was really great to meet these other executive directors who no matter what they were doing, we all felt this same pressure. Um, just based on the position. And I actually started at happy hour group for a current and former executive directors like just to complain. Cause sometimes, you know, and I, I will say that I got very lucky with my board. We have a really talented, passionate group of people, but everyone complains about their job at some point. And it was really great to have this group of people who were like, oh, the board meetings and I, right. You know, and you don't have to explain that sort of the nuances of, but, you know, whiteboard me as frustrating. Um, so definitely, definitely, definitely found connection with people in similar positions. You know, I said it earlier being the top cheese as lonely. And so being able to find people who either have gone through or are going through some of those same struggles was invaluable in keeping my sanity and keeping it fun and being able to sort of like blow off some steam in a way that wasn't complaining to my board about my board. You know what I mean?

  Shane Diamond 24:56

  Yeah,

  Benn Marine 24:57

  absolutely. And thank you for that. That's, that's huge. And so now that you've think you've mentioned score mean association, nonprofits, were there any other resources that you, that you reached out to or leaned on?

  Shane Diamond 25:09

  Okay.

  Benn Marine 25:09

  I mean we leaned on stars in a lot, the sexual assault response services of southern Maine cause they're, you know, doing similar work and they actually trained our actors to do some like basic advocacy work. Um, I mean we've leaned on local accounts, I've leaned on local graphic designers, I've leaned on, um, you know, folks who've done PR to sort of help us look at our marketing strategy. And the reality is we are also afraid to ask for help. Um, all the time. And I'm much better at it professionally that I am personally. But it's this feeling of if I'm asking for help, it means I'm weak. I can't do it on my own. Right. That's how we feel. But if I say, Ben, I have this favor, will you help me with this thing? You're probably like, heck yeah, Shane, thanks that I am confident and competent enough to do this thing and he wants my advice and like, yeah, of course I'll help you. Totally. You're not thinking, oh Shane is such a pain in the butt. Like why would he ask me for help? Like just do it yourself or you say, dude, I would love to help you, but like, I don't have the capacity right now and then that's not about me asking for help. That's about you. Like not being able to do it. So we have this huge fear around asking for help that we are taking up space, that we are a nuisance, that, you know, people are just acquiescing because they don't know how to say no, but like, it feels so good when we are able to help someone. And I really learned to be able to ask people for help if, if someone is better at it than I am. Cause I, you know, if you want to be the best at something and I unfortunately have that drive. Um, I wanted how I want help from the best. I want help from people who know better than I do. Um, there's some other great resources. Um, it was a lot of great websites. Uh, what's blue? Avocado is a good like nonprofit website. There's, it's all other, you know, just ask around. And the, you know, this whole thing started because I was talking about at a coffee shop and somebody knew, some knew somebody who knew somebody. And so it's figuring out what those resources are and, and using them, being able to lean on them, that's why they're there. I love that you brought up asking for help because I feel like that's so huge and I think especially in the United States where we have this like pull yourself up by your bootstraps mentality. It's seems infinitely hard for people to do that. And I think the, and I know I, and I, I struggle with that for sure. And I think that's like a huge part of what organizing is, right? It's like we're inviting, the whole point is to invite the community into the work and ask for help and we can't invite people in the front and asking for help. So, yeah. I'm so, I'm so glad that came up. What, what about uh, the hardest thing? Like the most challenge. Like if there was like one, like the most challenging thing, what would be and how did you overcome that? Yeah, I think every, every organizer faces this at some point where you're working your tail off and you're so passionate about it and you feel like the, the dial is not moving. You know, your work, you're so impassioned about this thing. I'm so passionate about sexual assault prevention and no matter how good we are, how much I believe in the work, how talented our educators are. Like sexual assault is still happening, happening at an overwhelming rate on college campuses. And like, there's nothing we can do. Um, and that's hard, you know, and of course like we hope to have more good days than bad, but you know, that's, that was really, really challenging with the work. You know, the days when you're exhausted, when you haven't had a day off and you know, four or five weeks and you're, you know, running into speed bumps and you're tired and it's, it's really easy to look at it and be like, why am I doing this? We're clearly not making a difference or not adjusting. The statistics at all. Um, and it's really easy and organizing to get, to get disheartened with the maybe slowness of the action or, um, the, the pushback that we get or, um, you know, it's really hard to do sexual assault prevention and in a Trump era, um, but you always remember that there's one person in every audience who's listening and if we change one person's perspective or opinion or experience or life, that's one person who's got, you know, like that's, you can't look at it like, Oh, have 99 people didn't. But like one person you made an impact on one person, like that is an incredible accomplishment. And so it's, it's recognizing that they are going to be disheartening moments and also keeping in your other pocket, the moments where you feel like you are a rock star who's making a ton of change because that, that it has to balance out. If there's not some good bringing you back from the frustration, this work is not going to be not going to be for you. Yeah. And I'm curious too, in terms of sexual assault, um, advocacy work. Did you, did you guys work with other organizations in other parts of the country, like outside of Maine? And are there any that, uh, for folks who might be listening from, um, anywhere really like organizations they should be following or looking into? Yeah, we tried to as much as we could. I know there's some great organizations who are doing some good work, great statewide coalitions. Um, the national, um, I'm going to mess this up. I think it was the National Sexual Violence Resource Center I could be at. It's in DC at rain obviously is amazing that rape abuse and incest national network. Um, the Pennsylvania coalition against rape p car is really incredible. Um, cal Casa, the California coalition against sexual assault is really great. Um, they do a lot of, uh, like free webinars that are really cool. Um, the, for folks who are involved in student affairs, there's a really great student affairs conference every year. Um, college didn't affairs, I can't remember. It's called. It's in January every year. There are some great like sexual assault conferences that happen if you're in higher ed. Um, the main coalition against sexual assault deserves a shout out there doing really incredible work here in Maine. I doing a lot of stuff with human trafficking, modern human trafficking in Maine that we don't necessarily talk about. Uh, most states have great stay wait statewide coalitions. The actually, I think Colorado has a great state wide coalition. Um, but there are sexual assaults, supports, response, et Cetera in every just about every community. I am depending on, you might have to travel a little bit and in your community. But, um, there's, there's sexual assault response services in every community and um, call those people. You know, I've, I've called the SARS and hotline before someone disclosed to me and I was like, I don't know how to handle this. Um, and being able to, again, being able to ask for help and if they're survivors out there listening, uh, you're not alone. Um, you know, someone, someone believes you. I believe you. I might not know your story, but I believe you and, and don't be afraid to reach out and ask for it for help from these really incredible coalitions who were doing really great work all over the country. Yeah. And to that end, any kind of advice that you want to impart on folks for just like basic consent knowledge and you know, to help further prevent sexual assault. Yeah. That's awesome. Thank you. Um, I was just talking to a friend of mine about how to talk to this, uh, with, with her young kids or young boys. And I beat when we sort of boil it all down, for me, consent is about being kind and being respectful. Um, and so if you're having, you know, having sexual activity with someone, you're making out, you're touching butts, you're not wearing pants, be kind and be respectful. Um, and that means checking in, Hey, is this okay? What do you like? Does this feel good? Can you do this to me? Right. It's being kind, it's our understanding that like, you're putting your body on someone else's body. Be Kind, respect that, respect that body. And if you're not being kind to being respectful, maybe this isn't the time for you to be having sexual activity. Right? Like if you're too drunk and you can't get a sentence out, that's not the time. Someone can't be kind of respectful and you can't be kind of respectful to that person. Um, if it feels uncomfortable saying to someone, Hey, I think you're super cute. I want to make out, if that doesn't feel like language that you might use a, you can try to find different language or be, maybe you're not ready to, to engage in that activity if it feels awkward or uncomfortable for the words come out of your mouth. Don't do your mouth to do other things. Right. Um, I think we have this big fear that people are going to be wrongly accused of sexual assaults, um, that, you know, or that it's sexy or just to do it just to like lean in and do the move. Um, it's not, it's not, uh, it might be in a longterm relationship where you can really read someone's body language, but, um,

  Shane Diamond 33:33

  okay.

  Benn Marine 33:33

  To be kind to be respectful. We have to ask questions and know what people like and that the rate of false accusations is so incredibly low. It is like percentages of a percent. Um, they, we just hear about it a lot because it gets sensationalized. But, um, if people are, are nervous about getting consent, uh, be kind, be respectful. Um, I was also as recommend, um, having conversations when you're still wearing pants. So like let's say you and your partner like, or let's say you really want to like get an a but stuff, um, just for example, the, the time to have that conversation is not, you know, when you're both like super turned on and half naked, maybe it's like over lunch or over coffee. You say like, Hey, I'm thinking about this thing, you know, really wondering like how do you feel about stuff? And then you could have a conversation where there's no pressure, um, where there's not any like expectation that because you're naked or someone bought some dinner, which is garbage. Um, so have that conversation ahead of time. Um, consent is ongoing so it's checking in. It's just cause someone takes their shirt off, doesn't mean they want to take their pants off. Um, sex doesn't have to be linear, right? Color outside the lines, take it over a path you want. Uh, there's no expectations. The running the bases is a crap metaphor. You've run the left field, you live your life. Um, do it in whatever order makes sense for you. Um, and, and be kind to be respectful and have fun. Sex is fun. Sexual activities, fun. That's all we all do it. Well, I'll talk about it.

  Shane Diamond 34:58

  Yeah, just ask.

  Benn Marine 35:02

  Awesome. Love that. I'm changing gears a little bit cause I do want to ask about this other piece that feels kind of unrelated to everything, but I feel like in organizing there's like these, um, there's like these, there's this idea or maybe it's just in my head, I don't know. But there's this idea that we have like, okay, there's campaign organizing and then there is direct services and there's education. And I feel like sometimes one gets prioritized over the other. Like, oh, policy must be the most important thing because it is policy, right? Or it's like the sexiest thing cause it's like a campaign with a timeline. Um, but that actually resiliency work, education work, like in the case of what you were doing was speak about it. Um, direct services work like that, all of it is so important because ultimately it's, it's serving the community. I, I'm curious, did you ever in your time at speak about it, did you ever run into any of that and, and, or did you ever collaborate like the deadlines ever crossing wake? Was there ever a policy work or it sounds like he's worked with stars on a lot, which a lot of like direct service, right? I don't know if there's necessarily like cross cross contamination and I'm like we never really did any policy work because there's people out there doing better work. I know now the new executive director is like, she has more of a policy mine that I did. So she's writing in, you know, they're trying to, they were trying to change the violence against Women Act. Um, so she wrote in on behalf of speak about it. Like it made some policy suggestions cause that was more of her, her comfort zone. Um, I think there's a lot of collaboration. There wasn't necessarily a lot of cross pollination, uh, when we were doing the work. Um, and I, you know, going back to your point about like the different types and timelines for, for, um, organizing, it's been really clear about your goals, right? Like on a campaign, your goal is very clear. You have a timeline and you're trying to get someone elected or you're trying to get a policy change or a law changed, you know, with speaking about our, our goal is to eliminate sexual assault, right? We don't have a timeline. We know it's a lofty goal. Um, and so it is going to be a little bit more of the grunt work. Uh, you know, no pun intended, um, to, to make that happen. So I think it's also really easy for nonprofits or organizers to dilute the, the mission in order to, to be able to be adaptable. So if we, like if we say we're going to, we want to combat sexual assault and then we throw in dating violence and we throw in, um, sexting and we throw in, um, like trying to help kids, um, who've been arrested for child porn from sending sex. Right now we've sort of broaden this out a little bit. We are tackling more than just our primary goal of sexual assault prevention, especially if we're talking about, you know, dating violence or a lot of people want us to talk about like teaching faculty not to have relationship with students. Like yes, that technically is sexual assault prevention, but that's like not what we're trying to do. And so once you get into it, it's really easy I think for people to sort of tack on more things that feel important, that feel relevant and then you realize you're stretched super thin trying to meet all of these goals and trying to, to maintain your niche. That's now been a little bit broadened, which is my long winded way of saying we didn't do a lot of cross work with, you know, policy or lobbying or you know, we were a political as a nonprofit. Um, because I wanted to make sure that we were staying true to our small niche mission so that we could continue to work towards it. That makes sense. How I'm curious navigating, especially in fundraising land, I feel like it's easy to get distracted by that. Well, hey, there's a grant for this particular thing, which is really close to what we do. So actually we could go for that grant, but now you're committed to work. That's this other thing. How did you resist those temptations and how did you navigate that? Um, I was not great at it. I think we also were a very, very unique nonprofit and when I left, we didn't have any grant or foundation funding. It was all fee for service and private donations, which puts speak about it in a very, very unique financial situation. Um, I don't know what Olivia is doing now. Oh, I think they just got a grant actually to do high school shows and Maine, which is super cool. Um, but we did run into things where like people would approach me to do something and I was like, yeah, this feels close enough to what we do. Um, and the board actually would sometimes real man or the staff would sometimes real man. Um, so we, yeah, I mean I was talking earlier too about like how to sort of grow and adapt as things change and it's a tough line to walk. It's a tough line. And that's, um, you know, one of the benefits of having a board is you've got sort of this system of checks and balances built in that says like, this is a good idea. This is not a good idea. You know, what is within the range of our mission and what's not? And um, Oh God, that's good. Yeah. I realize I'm like putting my foot in my mouth here around the lake. Be Adaptable, but not too much. No. But I think that's, I think it emphasizes that it is, uh, a bit of a tightrope to walk sometimes. Yeah. Um, anything else you want to add or anything I should have asked that I didn't ask or, I mean, I think I sort of touched on this a little bit and you certainly asked a question about self care, but, um, someone who is organizing is doing this because they're passionate about it. Um, and it's really, really easy to just like dive in head first and then six months later, uh, start floating. Um, so to, to folks who are out there thinking about organizing and want to get involved either with an existing project or to start something new, remember to take care of yourself along the way. Um, you can love something and you can dive in headfirst and go gung Ho and you can also sort of ease yourself into it and do something that's manageable for you. Um, be passionate, asks for helping the community create change. There's always, there's always changed. It needs to be made, you know, if we're stagnant, that's, that's boring. Nobody likes stagnant so, so don't be afraid to shake things up. Um, take care of herself in the process. Remember to be able to turn it off sometimes. Um, that doesn't make you a bad organizer if you have boundaries. If you're not checking your email at midnight, that doesn't make you a better organizer. It means you're a person with boundaries and that's okay. Um, and keep fighting the good fight and drink lots of water. Enjoy the sunshine and that your pets. Awesome. I do want to, I do want to dive a little deeper on self care though cause it feels really important and I feel like it's like one of the things that comes up the most, the people want to know about. Um, I mean you were, you were there for what, eight, nine years? How, what did self care look like for you? Like how, Eh, and also and for your team, because I feel like something that I've seen a lot is that okay, there's sometimes becomes this, um,

  Shane Diamond 42:06

  okay.

  Benn Marine 42:07

  How do you say it? Almost like a toxic cycle where somebody stays a little late one day and I'll all of a sudden we're thinks that the whole shoe, they're staying late, I got to stay late or, and then all of a sudden becomes this crazy competition to who can work the longest, craziest hours and then, and that's just not conducive. You know, I just don't think that's conducive to good work. Uh, but I've seen it happen a lot and I think it's really hard when they're is, especially when people are doing because they're passionate about and they care about and you have that or at least I feel like something that would go through my head a lot is like, well, you know, if I just do this one more hour, it could have that much more of an impact and, or if I don't do this hour and we're not successful, am I going to kick myself for not working that hour or whatever, which is all ridiculous. Um, but in terms of like yourself and also the team and that culture, how, how did you manage that? I think first there are times when like the work ebbs and flows, like if your pedals to the metal, the entire, the entire project. I know sometimes like campaigns can get a little crazy but that's a finite amount of time, right? Like no one is going to be sustainable if you're a pedal is to the metal forever all the time. So understand that the work is going to ebb and flow. You know for us that meant that um, July, August and September, like we were balls out and I was going to be working 60, 70, 80 hour weeks consistently for three months. And so what that means in terms of self care is we would take off between Christmas and New Year's. You know, like we work on, I'm largely a college schedule, so that's dead time. So don't come in, don't work. If you know, I sort of joked about it earlier that on a Friday afternoon, if it's really sunny out, like get your work done and go, you know, no one wants to, I think for me and as the boss, I really tried to employ the mentality of work hard when you're here and then go home. Um, and we had the opportunity to have to offer salaries to our employees. Um, so if you get your work done in 25 hours, you're still getting paid for 40 cause it's not, you know, it's, I don't want it. You don't get punished for being efficient and I don't want you to sit around and waste 15 hours on Facebook so that you can pay a rent. Um, and so trying to build that culture of show up and work hard when you're here and then go home and having boundaries. I think now one of my employees, former plays, um, has something in his email footer that says, I will check my email from, you know, between like 8:00 AM and 6:00 PM. If you like, need me outside of that time, please call. But I might not answer right. We're not right. We're not brain surgeons. Um, and so it's, it's having clear boundaries and nothing we, I mean obviously there are like certain like health or safety things that like, you know, you need to answer, but like we're not that important. I'm not that important. I always said to someone like, if you're on fire, don't call me, call the fire department like there and if fits, if you're on fire, like certainly don't email me. Like that's the time when you call. So just being very clear about, you know, what's, what your boundaries are and, and then it's okay to have boundaries, you know, it's okay to, to be passionate about something and shut it down at a certain time of night where you can talk about the latest episode of Saturday night live or whatever book you read or whatever, you know, it doesn't make you, I think I struggle with that at the beginning that um, I wasn't good enough if I wasn't working all the time. And what I learned was I was just tired and resentful all the time because no one is putting that pressure on me but me and I realized that I was a better employee, a better speak about an advocate. If I was well rested, if I had eaten, if I went to a yoga class, I was able to more show up for the work and be more present and fight harder when I was there as opposed to like half asleep fighting. Cause I've only eaten, you know, a handful of cashews today and it's six o'clock at night. Um, you know, we, I think there are so many companies now that have like unlimited vacation time, like unlimited paid vacation and nobody takes it because there's this stigma around like, Oh, if I'm not working, fuck that stigma. Like take care of yourself, work hard and then take the time off so that you can come back and work harder. You know what I mean? Like being able to go at 110 miles per hour all the time is not sustainable and it's going to burn you out and you're not going to able to achieve your goals and you're not going to be fun. Um, and if you work in a place, you know, I think it's very easy to put that pressure on ourselves of like, I'm going to do this, like I'm going to stay later. But frankly, like a lot of office cultures are not that way. If you're at an office culture that is like really or an organizing culture that's really pressuring people to like outstay each other, think about if that's the kind of place where you feel successful, you know, and is there are other things you can do or are changes you can make to maybe shift that boundary a little bit. You know, do you know someone in power who can do that? Do you have the power to culturally change that and taking it easy on yourself that just because you're working a hundred hours doesn't mean you're working 100 effective hours. That doesn't make you better if you're working a hundred. If you can get it done in 40 and then have those other 60 hours to live your life, that makes you a smarter, more efficient, more effective employee. Thank you. That's awesome. That's, yeah, that's super awesome. Um, that's all I had for questions. Any, any last thoughts? Anything else you wanted to add or, no, just go out there and fight the good fight. Um, if there's something you want to do, if there's change you want to see, see if someone's out there doing it already and join their team and if they're not, you pave that way. Keep fighting. Cool. Thanks so much Shane. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for tuning in today. I hope you're enjoying this podcast as much as I enjoy putting it together for you. If you're looking for some of the resources at Shane mentioned in this episode, I have linked to all of them in the show notes, which you can find@oceanoforganizing.com. If you're enjoying this podcast and you find it helpful, please subscribe wherever you listen and leave a review. It helps us rank higher and reach more folks like yourself that are out there looking for these resources. Thank you. I appreciate you. Be well.