Heartfelt Stories from the Fight for Marriage Equality — Jeanmarie Gossard on Organizing, Burnout & Intersectionality

Jeanmarie Gossard ("Jeannie") built a career organizing for LGBTQ rights and marriage equality, working in Maine, Rhode Island, New Jersey, Indiana, Ohio, Massachusetts, and New Hampshire over roughly five years — moving from volunteer canvasser to statewide field director and campaign manager. In this conversation, she traces how a single recruitment email pulled her from international development work into the marriage equality movement, and how her passion for the work stayed strong through campaign after campaign until burnout and growing awareness of organizing's blind spots around race and intersectionality caught up with her in Ohio.

She shares some of her most memorable moments: a conservative Catholic legislator whose vote — and marriage — was changed by meeting gay couples; a ten-year-old who told a wavering representative "I love my moms and I love Jesus"; a faith leader transformed after a congregant came out to him; and a canvasser who came alive once moved from unsafe door-knocking to phone banking after disclosing she feared for her safety at night as a trans woman.

Jeannie also gets candid about the tension between "winning at all costs" and doing the work with integrity, including two campaigns she left before the win because she felt the burden was falling hardest on the most marginalized people involved. She closes with reading recommendations (Ta-Nehisi Coates's "The Case for Reparations" and Robin Wall Kimmerer's "Braiding Sweetgrass") and advice for anyone looking to create change in their own community: stay true to yourself, and don't ignore the things that make you come alive, even outside of activism.

SHOW NOTES

Jeanie has worked on LGBTQ advocacy campaigns on both marriage and non-discrimination efforts. She shares with us some of her favorite memories and greatest challenges in the work. Currently she is off hiking the Pacific Crest Trail as part of her goal to be walking for a year, she’ll be heading over to the Continental Divide Trail next.

Just as a side note, this is actually the very first interview I ever recorded for this podcast. Part of why it’s taking me so long to post is because Jeanie and I recorded a conversation that was an hour and 40 minutes! I had yet (and am still learning how) to be concise!

You can follow Jeanie and her outdoor adventures on here on Instagram.

Recommended Reading from Jeanie

The Case for Reparations by Ta-Nehisi Coates is an article originally published in Atlantic Magazine that should absolutely be required reading for all white folks. If you don’t have a lot of time for reading, good news, the Atlantic has an audio file so you can listen to the article. I’ve embedded it below for your easy access. The other recommendation from Jeanie for your reading pleasure is Braiding Sweet Grass by Robin Wall Kimmerer.

• Transcript

  Benn Marine 0:09

  Hey friends. Uh in today's episode, Jean Marie Gossard, or Jeannie, uh shares with us some of her experiences working to advance rights for LGBTQ folks and in this order. In Maine as a volunteer recruiter, Rhode Island as a deputy statewide canvas director, New Jersey as a statewide canvas director, and Indiana as an in-district organizer. Ohio as a regional lead organizer and field strategy consultant for Equality Ohio, Massachusetts as a statewide field director, and last but certainly not least in New Hampshire as a campaign manager. Most recently, she has been refilling her cup through hiking long distance trails, including the Appalachian Trail, the Ice Age Trail, Hay Duke Trail, and many others while writing poetry. She's a constant source of inspiration for me, both as an organizer and as a friend. Let's dive on in.

  Jeanmarie Gossard 1:38

  Okay, what got you doing?

  Benn Marine 1:40

  What got you into organizing? Yeah, let's start there. That's not okay.

  Jeanmarie Gossard 1:43

  Um what got me into organizing? Well, hilariously, um, an email, a recruitment email from um much loved and known Jacob McLean, actually, for the main marriage campaign. And I think the title or subtitle was something like, it will, it was like vacation volunteer. And then the first line was, don't have money, but have time. And I was like, this email is for me. They've written this personally to me, for me. Obviously, I need to do this because at that point in time I'd just come back from working internationally. I thought I wanted to do international development work and learned quickly when abroad in sort of classic white Western naive way, uh, that you know, the way that we do international work abroad is I'm not a huge fan of. So in terms of um NGOs and like really uh trusting local communities. So um I've been in some really neat communities abroad that were doing stuff very, very differently, turning the Western paradigm on its head and just basically letting me be a visitor uh and a learner. And so when I came back, I was really excited because I was all about trying to figure out, well, where is my community now? And so when I received this email, um, it was the kind of thing that um really just catapulted me into the marriage equality movement. Uh for me, it felt like a black and white issue. Whereas I'd spent all this time in international work just in this sea of gray, what felt like gray. Are we doing good for the community? Is what we're doing actually more harmful than good? How do we even know since we're outsiders? Um, but when it came to marriage in this email, as soon as I read it and heard that Maine was fighting for the right to marry on the ballot, um, it just felt like a no-brainer. And yeah, I jumped in.

  Benn Marine 3:37

  At the end of that campaign, were you like, yes, give me more, or like what what kept you in the work?

  Jeanmarie Gossard 3:43

  Oh my goodness, yes. I felt uh organizing felt like a beautiful um marriage, no pun intended, but like of skills and of my skill, of skills and passion. It just felt like skills and passion in my life were colliding. Um it felt like something that I was naturally good at in terms of talking to people, speaking from the heart. Um, I have a cousin who's gay, and it was very easy for me to kind of like always bring that to the forefront. Um, I don't know how to describe it other than blood boiling, which I guess is a little cliche, but I felt most alive when I was doing the work, you know, running down those streets, talking to people. And it just felt, it just felt so urgent and important. And so it was kind of wild to learn that I could, you know, in the last week or two weeks of the campaign, we were, I mean, we were like going to bed at midnight and getting up at five. And it was just like go, go, go, go, go. Um, and I'm a total lover of sleep. So it blew my mind that I was able to do that. And I and I learned very quickly that I was able to do that because I was just so passionate about it. Um, and just felt like I couldn't really sleep until I knew that my cousin would be able to marry the person he loved.

  Benn Marine 4:58

  I'm curious about that transition from volunteer to work.

  Jeanmarie Gossard 5:01

  Yeah, I mean, like I said, that realization of this being a place where passion and skills collided did make me feel and just like how alive I felt in the work and how important it felt. Um, I immediately knew that I wanted to do this until everyone in the country could marry whoever they want. Um, but I was a little concerned after the Maine campaign, I was wondering, am I just gonna be volunteer? Does this mean I'm gonna be volunteering for the rest of my life? Um, which I desperately hoped was not the case, uh, obviously, um just in terms of making a living. And uh but it was really there was the community of people that I worked with in Maine that helped. Uh, when Rhode Island was starting up as a campaign, um, my boss from Maine ended up working in Rhode Island, and he was someone who told me that they were hiring for canvassers and that I should apply. So when that opportunity came up, I was really psyched. I mean, I didn't even think twice. I just did everything I needed to do to make that happen. You know, I found a place to live close enough to Rhode Island to be able to commute, and um, it was it was a real no-brainer.

  Benn Marine 6:14

  So you so you then you go on to Rhode Island and then kind of fast-forwarding through, then it was, I'm trying to remember. So you you did Roadie and then New Jersey, and then Indiana, and then Ohio, right? Yep, and then and then New Hampshire.

  Jeanmarie Gossard 6:29

  And then Massachusetts, and then fast gender non-discrimination protections, public accommodations, and then New Hampshire.

  Benn Marine 6:36

  Wow, yeah, that and that's covering a lot of ground, and that was over the course of what three-ish years, three, four years? It was like five in the end. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I'm curious that sense of like passion and drive. Did you feel that all the way through to your most recent campaign or or project? Or or did that wing, did that ebb and flow for you?

  Jeanmarie Gossard 7:00

  I don't know if ebb and flow is the uh I wouldn't say it ebbed and flowed. I would say for the most part, it was a steady, wonderful stream of passion. Um, just in terms of this real belief. And once we started, you know, with all these wins, it became clear how we were so rewarded and affirmed for sharing personal stories, for holding space for people to tell their personal stories. Um and like my personal growth as a human as well, in terms of my understanding of my own sexual orientation and gender identity and all of these things. I think my passion basically grew or stayed high through the, I would say the end of Indiana. I would say the end of Indiana, Indiana was a wonderful campaign. And then Ohio, I started to notice that I had kind of become this like epic organizing machine in terms of just like automatic pilot doing the things the way we'd always done them, and starting to see, I mean, throughout the course of the different campaigns, I became more and more aware of the idiosyncrasies of intersectionality in organizing and where that was lacking in our movements and feeling um the the end goal was always remained from the beginning to the end black and white, and something that I was deeply passionate about. That never changed. What changed was seeing organizing's effect on communities, seeing sustainable organizing versus campaigns that come and go and leave a community with folks who don't have long-standing jobs but have been working for a campaign, but not for very much money, but really were the you know, feet on the ground doing the work and the interplay of communities of color, you know, where we were canvassing, what votes we were trying to get, and you know, all of these things. I mean, it really blew my world open so that by the time I was in Cleveland, I had some ideas about how I felt things, what values I wanted to continue to bring forward in my organizing, and what ones I didn't, whether or not the movement agreed with that or not. And so I think that I started to lose a bit, a bit of the passion because I started to just burn out personally in terms of overwork and um I think exhaustion and uh just doing things the way that they've always been done and how that can kind of take a toll over time.

  Benn Marine 9:27

  More broadly speaking, um, if you could speak to like kind of one of the most memorable and rewarding moments of your organizing career. Oh my goodness gracious.

  Jeanmarie Gossard 9:35

  Ben, that is a very difficult question because there were, I mean, there were so many moments. I there were just there were just so many incredible moments. I mean, I can think of there's just a bazillion from I don't know, from from collecting all of those letters that we collected in Rhode Island that people were taping to their front doors. I mean, to all the way to, oh man, do you remember shoot? I can't remember the name of that legislator in Rhode Island, but I always tell the story of the super Catholic legislator that who basically said he was kicked out of his church, like he was excommunicated from his church. He said on the day of the vote, he said to someone that he realized that day that it not only was it the most important vote he'd ever take as a legislator, but it was the most important vote he'd ever take as like a man. And he also said, he also said that hearing from all of the cute gay couples that we, you know, that we had him speak with, that listening to them talk about their love and their marriage or their desire to be married strengthened his marriage. Do you remember that?

  Benn Marine 10:43

  I do, I do remember that. I think that I mean that's when I remember right.

  Jeanmarie Gossard 10:48

  Yes, it totally did. Like all these stories made me cry. Um in Indiana, I had sort of a bazillion in that um this representative that I was working on, he there was this, so I met with like obviously lots of couples, lots of families. And um, this one particular couple had a, I'm trying to what I want to say, like 10-year-old, 10-year-old daughter, and they were really hesitant about bringing her, like roping her in. But I I'd sort of learned through Intel that that um this representative that I was trying whose heart and mind I was trying to change was like had kids a certain age, around the same age, and like was a huge fan of kids, just like responded well to kids in meetings, et cetera. And the couple was like, we're nervous about bringing in our daughter. And I was like, Oh, yo, I'm I'm with you. And I was on the phone with them and I heard the daughter like jump up from wherever she was in the background and be like, I'm coming. She was just like, I'm coming, I'm coming with you, I'm coming with you. And they were like, uh oh, okay, well, I guess she's made her decision. And then we showed up for like the prep meeting, and I said, you know, I was like, Well, um, you know, we'll say her name is Sarah. I was like, What, you know, why are why did you come today, Sarah? And she was like, because I love my moms. She was just like, but it was like just from the most, it was like the most genuine. She was just like, I love my moms and I love Jesus. And she like, and she was like, and I know that this, she just, she was like the wisest little thing, like human. And she they told me about the meeting with the representative, and that this, that when he asked her why she was here, she said, said, I love my mom because I love my moms and I love Jesus. And like that was just like she just kept saying that. And the legislator, like, the legislator just totally, I mean, totally took to her and and um I think it really hit home for him that like this is about this is about children, this is about the next generation. There was also a um um a faith leader who had just changed his entire um, he went from journey story, someone who was originally unsupportive of marriage, to an advocate. Um, and he identified as a conservative, and um he was the leader of this congregation. And one day, this woman, and I think she was in her 40s, you know, middle-aged, you know, took him aside and said, you know, Reverend, can I can I speak to you in private? And um came into his office and came out to him and said, you know, Reverend, I've I have this thing that's like been been weighing on me. It's my truth. And I want you to help me, I want you to help me tell my parents. And his so the parents, like this whole family had been in this church for generations. And so he knew, you know, he knew her parents and he knew her really well. And he was struck. He he said that moment changed his entire life because he had never, he had just never truly known someone who identified as LGBTQ. And he, and when she came out to him with this, like in such vulnerability and such like truth and honesty, he he just like realized how how human it all was, and and and he, it was like sort of in a moment, you know, and she just like stared him straight in the face. It was like she had it never occurred to her that he would not be supportive because he'd supported her her entire life in this congregation, right? As like a faith leader and as a mentor. And so she just you know looked at him and was like, you know, I'm gay. I want to tell my parents, I need you to be there with me, and I I want you to help me do this. And so he saw someone, you know, in need, in vulnerability, and couldn't, and realized in that moment that like he couldn't say no. And then he became this advocate. And he any time, anytime I needed anything, he would just, he would just show up on a whim anytime. Um, and he was like pushing 80 years old. Um, anyway, so he met with the representative, a woman at the end of the campaign. This is one of my favorite stories, because it has nothing to do with like turning uh changing a white cis guy's mind in government. Was this this this woman came to me and she was she'd been so soft-spoken, she never wanted to do IPVR, she like refused. She did everything else, but she was like, I can't be on the phones and I can't do street camping. And at the end of the campaign, she came up to me and she said, Jeannie, I want you to know that I came out at work last week to like all my coworkers, and they were like super supportive. Um and she just anyway, that just that one always gets me because it's like we're a real purpose. I think a lot of what I felt why why I was there. I you know, I started in the movement because I wanted people to be able to marry the person they love, and then I ended in the movement or you know, quickly actually became aware that to me what was beautiful about our movement was how many incredible queer spaces, like spaces for queer people we created. Um, with all, you know, with all the flaws and all the nuance of like how gray this world and campaigning can be. I do feel like there were beautiful moments where we built space for people, for people to like really discover, nourish, cherish, honor who they really were. And that was a wonderful reminder for me, right? Because we're so f we get so focused on the legislators and how they're gonna vote, right? At the end of the day, this like wonderfully shy, soft-spoken woman came out for the first time, just felt super, super beautiful to me. Yeah, and folks who just like never saw, never thought that they would see the day that marriage passed in their state. There was, I remember a conversation on the phone with someone on Rhode Island. It was just like a canvas call. And this guy was like, there was so much sadness in his in his voice. It was like, and he was like, Do you think it's really gonna happen this year? Do you think it's really gonna happen like before I die? Kind of, you know, like in in saying that, there was this like, he was like, I'm 67. I don't know, you know, I don't know. It was really wild um just thinking about all the folks who've been, you know, working on this for decades, decades longer than I ever did, you know. One like hilarious story if people need a boost about like your personal what one person's what one person can do, like the power that you can have in like a kind of a goofy, creepy political way. But um, but it's real. I I don't know if already, yeah. So in Indiana, there was like the fishbowl where the Senate chambers were you could all of the people, all of the lay people would like stand outside and watch these legislators in this fishbowl, and you could see them, you could like see them walk in, you could see them like sit down at their chairs, and you'd see them cast their votes. And so we'd gone to the state house a million times, and this was it was finally time for the big vote. And, you know, we're supposed to sort of be activating a community to share their stories with a particular legislator and um, you know, hit them in all the ways that like humans need to be moved in order to to to to take action. And so I'd spent all this time like, you know, finding families, finding couples, finding people, you know, like, you know, veterans, firefighters, like just you know, lots of folks of lots of different identity groups, faith leaders, conservatives, repo like Democrats, everyone. And we call these folks grass tops, the ones who like would who would who would your legislator pick up the phone for? And I'd figured out that there was this cute bond between the mayor of my town and the the representative, and had had a good conversation, like several good conversations with him. Last minute, my boss comes up to me and is like, yo, Jeannie, we need to make sure that this representative is like voting the right way. Who could you call? This is literally minutes before the vote. So we're like, I'm staring at this guy, like across a pane of glass. And she's like, and she's like, you gotta like who can you have call him right now to su and let us know for sure that he is voting no. And I was like, oh man, okay. So I like picked up the phone and I called the mayor and I was like, yo, buddy, do you think you could call representative right now and make sure he's voting no? And this was this guy was like hilarious. He was the best. He was like, Oh yeah, I'm on it. I'm on it. I'll be right back. Hangs up. I'm literally standing there and I watch as the representative like feels his like, can you imagine how ridiculous this is? Like, I'm watching as he picks up his phone, says a few things, nods his head, takes a few steps, hangs up the phone, puts it back in his pocket, and then I get a text from the mayor that's like he's voting no. You got him, or something like that. Like, isn't that ridiculous? Wow. So it's just like, you know, you I don't know. Um, one person really can do quite quite a lot of things in this world for sure.

  Benn Marine 20:37

  What have you found to be the most powerful forms of organizing that you've experienced?

  Jeanmarie Gossard 20:41

  I guess I would find it hard to say to argue for a best, because I kind of feel that there's time and place, they they all play their role, and that role is important. I don't know what what what I saw was well-oiled campaigns that know how to change the hearts and minds of legislators and yeah, on ballot, sometimes the public, in a very like numerical efficient way. Of course, it's humanized because that's the nature of it, but it but it it it took all the facets of these different pieces of the campaigns when it comes to like grassroots, you know, numbers of contacts versus the quality of contacts, like that family that you know brought their daughter and sat with the legislator for a half hour versus like the 30 plus phone calls a night that were also being dumped into the voicemail box of my legislator. It felt like it all um felt important. And then I would say, certainly when I was on campaigns, I felt that like marches and protests were the least effective form of organizing, as well as like yard signs down there with yard signs. I would have like probably put them together, which is funny now thinking about that now, because um watching the Black Lives Matter movement and Um women's march organizing uh post the 2016 election, that's kind of a big piece. Like those public demonstrations are a big piece. Moving folks into action and then starting community dialogue around next steps. And so it's hard for me to say best. I mean, and then and then, of course, like direct services in terms of health clinics that are culturally competent and aware and know how to like care for and you know love up on LGBTQ folks, like especially trans folks in healthcare. I just think it's all super important. And one thing that, but but when I was in campaigns, I was definitely, I was definitely a fan of like big scale change. Obviously, I believed in policy and I still do, I was using that past tense, but like I still believe that those policies are are, you know, making sure that legislation is on the books is is huge, huge, huge when it comes to protecting people. Um I had I have a coworker actually who told me a story of um being told by her employer in Massachusetts that she needed to use the men's restroom at their at her place of work. Uh, this was post when we passed the public accommodations bill. So she was able to literally go to her employer um with some like kick-ass incredible confidence and be like, you can't, sorry, you can't tell me to do this because there's a law right here in Massachusetts, and here it is. It's on the books. And so, I mean, that is like huge. It's like people need, you know, when that is there, that's huge. It's also huge in terms of changing, you know, public perception and folks just being like, oh yeah, I know someone who's gay, I know someone who's trans, I know someone who's bi. Like, um, that's that was huge, you know. By the time we won marriage, I think people were saying like that one in, was it like one in three been? I can't remember one in three people knew someone who was gay or whatever. And like the more anyway, that that like all of that is huge uh for wide-scale change. But I also felt that I learned in campaigns and post-campaigns that I also was able to see that, like just because we passed, you know, marriage in Maine doesn't mean that they're that that's gonna solve all the kiddos who are growing up in a non-supportive family and everything that they're gonna have to go through. There's a lot of personal work that needs to be done. And I actually just recently this kind of like hit home in a huge way recently because I was asked to lead a trans-Ally training for a um women's empowerment course. And we went down there to do me and a pat an old coworker went down there to do this training, kind of just like, you know, it's a bunch of like progressive, a bunch of progressive identified um mostly white ladies, cis ladies, who would, if you were to say, like, you know, do you believe in LGBT rights? They would be like, of course, of course, of course, of course. And yet we spent two hours. We went to do just like a relatively simple cultural competency training and spent two to actually it was three hours holding space for these folks to like really move through some of their personal stuff. Um, like there were lots of tears, lots of just like realizing when you're face to face with the truth that the world is not as you were taught as a child, it blows people's worlds open. So there was a moment at the end of that where I was struck by the feeling that therein was something. Like I was touching up against something, you know, and you just have a feeling like you're touching up against something big. Like I was like, oh wow. This is in a in a sense the real work that we need to be doing across the country, which is like people need to be tapping into the self-work that it takes to undo centuries of systemic racism, systemic misogyny, systemic homophobia, and transphobia. And like, without that, sure, we can push a white cis guide to cast a vote, but if he turns around and the next year we got to do the same thing to get him to get going on a hate crimes bill, like there's real work that still needs to be done that like is beyond, I believe, legislation. I'm not sure if any of this is making sense. The answer to your question is that I don't think there's a best, and I think that it's all really important, but we just like we have to show up in like all the ways, and there's a place for everybody.

  Benn Marine 26:50

  Yeah, and I think that that's a great point that that there is a place for everybody because I know like something that I think sometimes happens, or and I don't know if you've experienced this, but I I feel like sometimes, especially in like campaign spaces or I'm even I've I feel like I've seen it even, you know, working with different nonprofits, you know, there's this idea of what a air quote good organizer is and looks like and acts, you know, that it's this like high energy person that's like, you know, can blaze through and do all this stuff and blah blah blah, whatever. But I actually, you know, I've I've seen organizers that are very quiet and reserved, but and people are drawn to them for that because they're able to, you know, create spaces in a in a in a very different way. And so, and I think um too often there's like expectations that I think we even blockade ourselves in ways where it's like, oh shoot, I could never do that thing over there, you know, like that's not me. But I think no, you know, recognize like I love what you said, that there really is a spot for everybody that literally within every person is like a unique, and I and I and I believe this to be true, that within every person is a unique ability, you know, to create change with you know, in whatever way that that looks like for them, that really no one else can do the way that they can do it.

  Jeanmarie Gossard 28:08

  You know, I definitely agree. I couldn't agree. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean, that like cute, shy, wonderful woman in Indiana, she refused to do to do the things that I was like, if only I could be a better organizer, I could get her to do this. Like, I remember my thought process then was very much like, but I at some point did have at least have the awareness to realize that, like, actually, no, she's just doing her and she's gonna contribute in like the incredible ways that she did. She really did, she really contributed a lot to the campaign. Um, and I this is like a little different, but somewhat connected. Um, but there's a story from New Jersey where I had like a really incredible canvasser, uh trans woman of color, um we'll say named Stephanie, who who like you were saying, you know, this kind of like prototype of a good organizer, like very um uh very gregarious, uh just very personable, easy to talk to, like um natural when it comes to um, I don't know, social skills or something. And so I just assumed that she would be the best, one of the best uh canvassers on the team when it came to numbers. And um, she was the worst. And I, after a period of time, I was like, okay, we gotta like look into this because this just like doesn't really line up. And I remember sitting down with her um and having a little like you know, white person awakening moment when Stephanie was like, Jeannie, I was like, How are you doing? You know, what's going on? I know you're so good at this. Like, are you doing okay? What's going on? And she was like, Jeannie, I love the work. It's so important to me. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't. And literally after the sun sets, when I'm on doors, I am like crouching in between houses in the bushes because I'm scared for my safety. I'm scared for my life. And aside from the reality of the world and that being like super effed and should not be the case in our country, in the world anywhere, it is. And so I remember asking her, you know, like, would you feel more comfortable in on phones? Would you want to do the work over the phone at night here in our office instead of being out on the streets? And she said, that would be incredible. Like she had this, like this like huge, epic sigh of relief. And then she was the best canvaser on our team. I think organizing tactics that may actually be handed down from like white patriarchal structures that we don't even really realize when we're when we're in it.

  Benn Marine 30:56

  You know, organizing, as as you've mentioned, definitely comes with its challenging moments. What have what have you found the most challenging and how have you overcome it? Or do you feel like you've overcome it?

  Jeanmarie Gossard 31:09

  I mean, I think probably the biggest challenge is this, like, you know, how the deep belief in the world we're working towards and the mentality that like you can't dismantle the master's house with the master's tools clashes with being in the master's house trying to use the master's tools. Do you know what I mean? Like, I just I kind of like think that politics, though for for me, a lot of the it just it didn't, it didn't feel like politics. I felt personal and it felt really real, uh, like in in in just like this like nitty gritty human blood kind of way. But there there were politics to it, right? And there were numbers to it. You know, we learned that if you well, we were told. So this is I don't know, it could get a little sticky here, Ben. But like words, like scripts were supposedly tested. They were tested for efficacy in terms of like, is this word? Do we get more positive response when we say same-sex marriage? Do we get more positive response when we say marriage for same-sex couples? And then we learned, like, don't say gay marriage, same marriage for same-sex couples. Partially because it's just not accurate, because there's nothing different about marriage. There's nothing like, you know, like gay marriage makes it like seem like a different type of marriage. Um there's that in terms of like being true and accurate and correct. But really, the reason that we made a lot of like word changes in or, you know, our particular approach would change based on the numbers in terms of response. So we learned that uh saying gay and transgender when we're working for non-discrimination protection, saying gay and transgender was better than being like, Do you know, do you believe in protections for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender? You know what I mean? Like, folks. And those were challenging. I think those moments were challenging because I personally, my whole identity until I like finally was in a relationship where I learned that like my identity was mine and didn't have to be defined by someone else. I didn't even know what to call myself for the longest time. I remember in Indiana actually at a community meeting asking my boss how I should, you know, if I should say that I'm queer, if I should say that I'm an ally or should I or say that I'm bi. And they were like, just say you're an ally. So like there's an example of which like I giggle, but like that is actually like pretty, pretty messed up, right? Is like kind of closeting someone in the queer community who's trying to figure out how to be real in front of a community. And like what will what will, but I remember at the moment being like, what will what title will bring me more respect in front of these people? And that was clearly the approach that my boss was taking, right? And I would say that those challenges happened like all the time. Do we, you know, the commercials that came out in Maine were like cutely and hilariously targeting a particular demographic of rural Mainers. So we got this like, I mean, it was the cutest, sappiest uh uh commercial ever that I'll remember until the day I die of like a grandfather sitting around a huge table with all of his grandchildren telling the story of uh his granddaughter who's gay, and like, yeah, it's awesome because you can't, you don't, you don't know who's gay in the picture. And like also he has got this thick, epic, wonderful main accent, and he's a veteran, and like all of these things that it's like we're clearly targeting a particular audience. You know, I've never seen a commercial with someone who identifies as bi. I've also just now I do think the movement is starting to, I think we're starting to question all those things. I think we're starting to realize that we have to be intersectional because if we're not, we're perpetuating systemic racism and all the things that literally we're fighting against. So um, but I think for me that was like always the most challenging because I always struggled with it because I knew coming from a family of my entire extended family is Republicans. Like I feel like I I have a I I had an have had whatever a knack for putting myself in someone else's shoes and meeting them where they're at, which I I like deeply believe in that process. And I think that our campaigns do a really good job of that. We just tend to, I think sometimes we have blinders on, I think we tend to focus on reaching people who whose vote we need and are the easiest to get because of timeline, versus all of the, you know, all the demographics of our country who truly need to be touched.

  Benn Marine 35:52

  What is more important, winning or or the process? Right? Like is it how we win or is it win at any cost? And I'm curious, you know, and and I and I've seen exercises like in um campaign debriefs like afterwards at the end, you know, where they'll break people out into like three categories, like people that are a hundred percent how, people that are a hundred percent win, and then people that are like eh, maybe somewhere in the middle. And I'm curious where where on that spectrum would you kind of put yourself in the in that process versus win and and how how have you kind of navigated that, especially as somebody who you know that policy is important, you know, and that yeah, that or that bul you know yeah, yeah.

  Jeanmarie Gossard 36:47

  And I um as much as I do rag on legislatures that are full of like cis white guys, we do need cis white guys to do some stinking work, you know what I mean? Like we need like those conversations need to happen with those folks too. Um so, but anyway, where do I fall on the thing? Uh I would say I would definitely say in the middle. And I would, I would, yeah, I'm definitely in the middle. And I think it was a kind that was just the intensity of it always for me, and the angst, and like I think the toll that ultimately it all took on me was was just like the toll of winning, the burden of it is shouldered by those most marginalized in our communities. Is that fair to say? I don't know. Maybe it's not, but that's what I felt like I saw a little bit of in the moments in our movement when I just was like kind of cringing and writhing in my own skin and figuring out where, where on what side of that line that you described I actually wanted to like be standing. And I did find myself in a place on two different campaigns where I left the campaign before the win, quote unquote, because I felt that experience that I just described to you of the burden falling most heavily on those most marginalized was like actually happening. And that I couldn't, I couldn't like, I could not support that knowing that it was happening and continuing to happen despite efforts to the contrary. So that's I mean, I would say really, I I guess really I left one campaign because of that, and the second half because of that, and half because I was burnt out. But it was like things went down on both campaigns that I felt were directly most detrimental and to the communities of color that we were that that were working for the campaigns and the movement and the teams that I was on or leading. So anyway, yeah, it's challenging. It's really challenging. Like where, because at the same time, I would say on the other it to try to like put myself in the shoes of the non-winning, of the what's the other? I I just remember winning. This is how this is how much of a campaigner I am. I just gave it away. But like, what's what was the other?

  Benn Marine 39:25

  On on one end of the spectrum, it'd be better to do everything air quote right or as right as it can be done and lose than it is to compromise values and win. And then there's like space in the middle.

  Jeanmarie Gossard 39:42

  Okay, well, I'm obviously in the middle because I could literally give you the argument for both I feel, and pieces of my body and soul and heart would would believe that each. Do you know what I mean? Um because on the other foot, if we're talking about process, if we're talking about process and making sure that we do things right, I think that sometimes what I've noticed, sometimes it feels like people are so afraid of saying the wrong thing or doing things, quote, the wrong way, that they don't move or they don't speak. And while I like firmly believe that we need to create spaces where marginalized identities are at the forefront, you know, leading the movements, speaking on the microphone, I do believe that in all the spaces, like the this, you know, GUI, all the spaces in between that for like true intersectional long-term sustainable change, I believe everyone's voice is valuable, no matter their identity, background, et cetera. But I do think it's important to create spaces where like voices are heard that have historically, you know, and societally been silenced. Like obviously, like that is huge. But I I have found it's like so, uh, I think I'm getting off the the point is um I think we always talked, I remember in campaigns always talking about because like national organizations sort of lean, they they have reputations for leaning toward, you know, the win-win at all costs versus the like process, process, process, process. And I remember in campaigns, we always were kind of like too much process, we can't get anything done. And you know, if if there's too much process, you can't get anything done. While that's I I do think that that can be true sometimes. I I don't know, it's very tough. I find it very tough. I think this, this, that, that question that you have, Ben, is in essence, you literally, I could have just instead of babbling on about the challenges that I experienced in campaigns, it would literally just be that question. That question, in and of itself, is the source of all of the challenges I ever lived out in my life in campaigns.

  Benn Marine 42:11

  All right, what is one piece of writing you think everyone should read? Could be a book, article, poem, what have you.

  Jeanmarie Gossard 42:21

  I mean, the first that comes to mind is that I think that every I think that every white person in the United States should read The Case for Reparations by Tanny E. C. Kilts. Um, I think that that is a really important article that could blow open a lot of people's worlds that may not have thought about the fact that everything they think they've they've earned or owned is not theirs. But for everyone. I would go with Breeding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer, I think, is how you say your last name.

  Benn Marine 43:08

  And that is for my environmental soul. What advice do you have for someone looking to create change in their own community?

  Jeanmarie Gossard 43:18

  My advice would be to stay to stay true to who you are. And when I say that, I kind of for me that feels like when you get that feeling in your gut, like you have to speak, either when you see an injustice or someone said something that just sparks this like deep visceral need to speak, do don't ever hold that in because you think it's gonna come out wrong, or because you think this isn't a place for you to be. And the other piece would be to involve yourself with things that do what makes you come alive and don't let go of that. And if there are pieces of you that come alive in areas outside of organizing and outside of what you would stereotypically consider or sorry, traditionally consider as creating change, do them anyway. Follow those passions in addition to the ones that you know directly create change in front of you because there's just so many ways to ripple out into the world, and it's all important. Like your cup has to be full to be able to be able to pour it out and make real change.

  Benn Marine 44:47

  Hey team, thanks so much for tuning into this week's episode with Jeannie. Currently, Jeannie is hiking the Pacific Crest Trail with plans on also hiking the Continental Divide Trail before the year is through. Super exciting stuff. You can check out the show notes to follow her along on Instagram, and I'll also have links to the two writings Jeannie mentioned in this episode. You can find those show notes at oceanoforganizing.com forward slash episode 12. That's one, two. If you're enjoying this podcast, please subscribe wherever you listen and leave a review or drop me a line and send me some feedback at oceanoforganizing.com. Top right corner, click feedback and let me know your thoughts. Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Be well, I think.