National Strategy with Organizer Molly Griffard
May 16, 2019
This week, host Benn Marine talks with Molly Griffard, a longtime LGBTQ political campaign strategist and 2019 NYU law graduate headed to an Equal Justice Works Fellowship at the Legal Aid Society in New York City. Molly traces her path from high-school activism against the death penalty through marriage equality campaigns in Maine, Washington, New Jersey, and Massachusetts, and into national advocacy work at the ACLU.
The conversation covers how organizers gauge when a state is "ripe" for proactive legislation (legislative makeup, funding, on-the-ground infrastructure, and the risk of ballot repeal), the toll of short-term intense campaigns and how to recognize when it's time to step back and rest, and why asking for help is one of the hardest and most important organizing skills. Molly also reflects on what pushed her toward law school — wanting to understand the "black box" of courts and administrative advocacy — and how tactics shift when moving from a clear single-bill fight like marriage equality to a systemic issue like mass incarceration, where there's no single piece of legislation that solves the problem. She closes with resources for aspiring organizers, including Repower (formerly Wellstone Action) and the Midwest Academy.
SHOW NOTES
Soon to graduate as part of the NYU Law class of 2019, Molly was previously political campaign strategist for LGBTQ issues around the United States. She shares with us her experiences, and how to think strategically around movement building and how to take care of yourself along the way.
Wellstone Action (Now RePower) – A great resource and they offer training opportunities, they also absorbed the content from the New Organizing Institute (NOI) and now hosts the annual Roots Camp which usually takes place in the fall following the november election cycle. To date, I don’t believe they are hosting one in 2019 but stay tuned for 2020, there will certainly be plenty to debrief after that cycle.
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Benn Marine 0:10
Welcome to the Ocean Organizing Podcast. I'm Ben Marine, and this week I bring you a conversation with Molly Grifford, who was previously a political campaign strategist for LGBTQ campaigns all across the United States and is currently a 2019 NYU law graduate and soon to be an Equal Justice Works Fellow at the Legal Aid Society in New York City. She shares about her experience as an organizer and her choice to pursue a law degree and what she hopes to accomplish with that knowledge. With that, let's dive in. So I'm curious, what got you into politics and organizing?
Molly Griffard 0:57
Yeah, so um what got me into organizing? Uh, I, you know, for as long as I can remember, I really had the activist bug. Um, I joined my high school's Amnesty International chapter uh pretty early in high school, and I got really involved in organizing against the death penalty in my home state of Missouri. And we would organize call-ins to ask the governor to stay, the execution of inmates on death row. And that's really how I learned, you know, at a pretty early age that uh who we elect and elections can really be a matter of life and death. And, you know, I think that really helped me understand the importance and the significance of uh politics and and organizing. And I've been engaged in you know some form of electoral and issue organizing really ever since then.
Benn Marine 1:46
Yeah, and so that that means you've been in the work for over a decade now, right?
Molly Griffard 1:51
Yeah, I mean, I uh I think you know, in high school, so it was more than a decade ago uh now, uh for sure. But uh, you know, in high school I wouldn't, it wasn't full-time work by any means, but it was, you know, get getting my feet wet and doing a little bit of um activism and organizing. And then throughout college, I I got really involved in electoral work, I think, because of that experience, having you know, seen what a difference it can make in who we elect to lead us. And so, you know, really got involved in progressive politics. I went to college in Minnesota, and there's a really great tradition of progressive grassroots electoral organizing there that I got very involved in, including uh through Wellstone Action, and they actually do trainings across the country on uh grassroots campaigns, uh, both for people, you know, local leaders who want to run for office as well as for um citizen activists and campaign workers. And so that really, I think, further cemented my interest in uh organizing work. And, you know, then I graduated from college into a horrible economy and uh not really sure what I would do. I happened to hear about a uh marriage equality ballot measure in Maine. Uh that was in the fall of 2009. And so I a friend was uh moving to Boston, so we road tripped cross-country, dropped her off in Boston. I went up to Maine and you know took a leap of faith and uh got involved with that campaign, and it was you know a really amazing experience. But then I think planted the seeds of working in the LGBTQ movement for the next several years.
Benn Marine 3:35
That so how how so I'm so curious because I feel like I know something that I've always struggled with is maintaining um like self-care and and through through for all that time, especially because in 2009 we we lost in Maine.
Molly Griffard 3:49
We did, and it was incredibly devastating. So I had um been an intern on Obama's first campaign in Minnesota um in in 2008, or his first presidential campaign, I should say, uh, in 2008. And so I was coming off of this high of like, we can win and we can do these amazing things. Uh, you know, we'd also had a lot of progressive wins in 2006, which I'd been uh involved with as a youth organizer. And so, you know, I was young, naive, thought that, you know, the right side always won. And then that kind of came uh crushing down when we lost on marriage equality in in Maine in 2009. And, you know, I'd built some really amazing friendships uh you know that have lasted uh to this day through that campaign and the community uh the you know, the volunteers, the organizers who I worked with, I think people really helped take care of each other and helped, you know, get through the pain of that loss. And that was so important. So a lot of people, uh the organizers from that campaign uh who were like me from out of state, several um went to New Jersey like right away after the main campaign. But for me, I knew I wasn't ready to like get on the road and go work on the next fight. I needed a little bit more time to heal and to be with this new community that I was uh getting to know. And so I stayed and uh got kind of involved with the small group that was in that was volunteering at Equality Maine, uh starting up they were there Equality Maine, I should say, was starting up these community conversations across the state, uh, you know, after some time to like air uh out the pain and the uh the grief from losing. And so, you know, went to one of those community meetings and then uh you know, I knew I was really still interested in doing LGBT uh campaign work, uh, but just needed a bit of a break. And so uh life took me in and a relationship at the time took me in a totally different direction. So I kind of took that break. I um tried out some other types of work, including I was interested in uh the food movement and uh healthy, sustainable local foods, uh worked for an organic farm actually in Washington state uh for a bit, and then started volunteering with Equal Rights Washington as they happened to be gearing up for a marriage equality fight. And slowly but surely that volunteer job turned into a full-time plus actual job with, you know, finally a paycheck. Uh and from there, I really just worked steadily in the movement for you know several years, taking, you know, sometimes short, sometimes longer breaks between campaigns to rest and uh take care of myself because you know, as you said, it it can be really hard to sustain this work, especially when you're in these short-term intense campaigns.
Benn Marine 6:57
How do you do you have any advice for folks on how to kind of navigate that? Like knowing, okay, yes is now the time to take a break, or like no, now's the time to push through.
Molly Griffard 7:08
Yeah, I think that's a very um, it's a good question. And also I think it's a very personal question that you have to be sort of in touch with your gut. Um, I think, you know, perhaps a good example for me would be coming off of the New Jersey marriage campaign. I served as the field director in the New Jersey campaign with you, Ben. Uh, and I worked really, really hard as we all did on that campaign. And I think at the end of it, I was really getting, I was getting close to burnout and I was tired and I was grumpy. And, you know, I have friends who are working in Indiana. Uh, and so some of us, you know, hopped in a car, went to Indiana, uh, you know, actually a whole bunch of us, including you, and you know, worked on that campaign. I was only there for a very short amount of time and realized this is, you know, this wasn't going to work for me. Um I, you know, I was just there to to help for a bit. I wasn't in like an actual position there, but I I just knew I couldn't stay and that I needed to actually take a longer-term break. And, you know, it was the great privilege of being, you know, in my 20s and not really having financial responsibilities and also having parents who I could drop my dog off with. And, you know, I bought a ticket to go to Nicaragua where I lived cheaply for a month and just kind of did a lot of yoga and surfing and uh took some Spanish classes and really refreshed myself. And I totally recognize that being able to just uproot your life and go to another country uh for a month-long self-guided retreat is a complete and total privilege. Uh, and also one that I think came with a time in my life without you know financial responsibilities like rent. Uh, I am currently paying rent in New York City, and that is no longer an option in my life. But uh, so I think being able to check in with yourself and also take opportunities where you can to find self-care, whether that be, you know, taking a big leap and taking a month out and going somewhere if you can, or, you know, when I was working in Utah, taking a weekend to go to some hot springs and go on some hikes, um, finding, you know, wherever it was that I could at the time to take a little bit of time and space, or, you know, between the New Jersey campaign or after the New Jersey campaign, a lot of time and space uh to heal and get ready for the next fight.
Benn Marine 9:37
That's awesome. Yeah, and I think that's I think that's great advice to kind of listen to your body and and and go with it. How do you stay informed and balance that with taking action? Yes, now's the time to act, or no, right now I need to focus on what I'm doing in this other facet of my life.
Molly Griffard 9:56
I mean, I don't know that I have great answers on that and it's kind of a struggle, but I think, you know, uh it's funny that you think I'm on top of stuff, but uh maybe more of like me knowing what's going on is more a symptom of social media addiction. Um but I do think that social media can be very helpful for staying up on uh grassroots issues and finding, you know, non-mainstream media voices to follow uh on, you know, whether it be Facebook or Twitter or um, I guess Instagram, which I use less because I'm an I'm old apparently. But um anyway, so finding people to follow on social media, I think can really keep you up on what is going on in movements that you care about. I know going to law school for me, I am, you know, I spent a lot of time working in the LWPQ movement. I really wanted to shift gears and really focus in more on racial justice work. And so I knew that I had a lot of learning to do in what's going on, especially in criminal legal system reform, police accountability work. Um, and so finding, you know, activists and leaders and scholars who are working in that area to follow keeps me up to date on what's going on. And then I think as far as you know, the other part of your question, which is knowing when to jump in and you know get involved versus um not, I think it's a hard thing. And I think some of it it's really just about for me being intentional about what my focus is now. And I think unfortunately for me, that means, you know, while I'm in law school, I know that I need to become the best advocate that I can for the clients and movements I'll be working with when I get out of law school. And so some of it, you know, very counter to working as an organizer for many years, whereas very externally motivated working on campaigns. Uh, school is much more self-you have to be much more self-motivated to work on your own skills and knowledge. And so, you know, for me, that's had to become more of my focus. Now, that's not to say that I haven't been engaged in things outside of the classroom, and I've really taken advantage of clinical opportunities to get to work both in public defense and really learning more about the movement for criminal legal system reform, uh, both through a public defense uh clinic and then also working in a clinic focused, it's called challenging mass incarceration, where I worked with an incarcerated client uh who's up for parole. And there's a lot of uh organizing in New York happening around uh reforming the parole system. And so I think, you know, getting to work directly with real people facing uh the many problems of the criminal legal system has been a way for me to be engaged in the work while also still in you know in school and learning and gaining skills. So I'm not sure if this is really answering your question, but I think you know, some of it's about just knowing what your focus is at any given time and sometimes having to make hard decisions of, you know, I have to stay in and do my reading for class and not go necessarily to every uh protest, uh, you know, but then also knowing that sometimes I need to put the books away and uh get out there and uh do something more tangible and real in the world because that also is important for the type of advocate that I want to be in the future.
Benn Marine 13:24
So so speaking a little bit about um about law school, what what brought you, what made you want to go to law school?
Molly Griffard 13:31
Yeah, it's a great question. I joke with a lot of people that I was an organizer before law school and made a wrong turn somewhere. Um, but I I think that's probably just because law school itself is a really grueling, uh sometimes demoralizing experience. But I know that you know I'm gaining skills and knowledge that I uh really want to be able to better understand the uh you know government and the legal system and you know the different levers of power that exist. And I think, you know, as an organizer, you know, you think about strategic planning and you think, you know, you start with identifying a problem and figuring out, you know, how what are the ways that you could solve this problem? And for me, I felt like I really didn't understand how the courts worked or how um administrative advocacy worked and these different areas that I've been able to learn a lot about through law school. So that I feel like you know, going to law school has given me and will give me more tools in my tool belt as an advocate. And, you know, I specifically I was working uh, you know, state to state on many campaigns, and then I ended up working at the ACLU and their national political advocacy department on LGBT issues. I was working with a lot of lawyers, and I think I was really inspired by the work that they do, and also really wanted to better understand uh the work that they do and felt a little bit like, you know, like I said, the admin advocacy or administrative advocacy and judicial uh advocacy litigation, that those areas were just sort of like a black box to me that law schools really helped me to understand.
Benn Marine 15:21
I'm curious when campaign and advocacy groups are are setting those kinds of strategies or looking at what states to focus on or what pieces of legislation, like is now the right time to do, you know, to push proactively forward on a non-discrimination bill or or whatnot. Um, what are some of the key indicators that that you look for or in terms of deciding to pursue legislation?
Molly Griffard 15:42
Yeah, so I mean I think that's a the complex question, and I think it probably varies uh movement to movement, issue to issue. Uh, but specifically, when I was you know at the ACLU doing that kind of work, uh it was working on proactive LGBT non-discrimination bills, also a lot of defensive work. So I was there um from 2014 to 2016, and we saw an onslaught of anti-trans legislation, religious refusals, so uh trying to use religion to discriminate bills. And so a lot of my work was reactive and defensive. But as far as the proactive, you know, where we didn't get to choose the fights, but um, as far as the proactive fights, I think, you know, it's really a matter of having willing and you know, engaged state partners, uh, legislatures that were perhaps um more willing to consider the type of legislation. You know, so on the ground infrastructure opportunity, and I think some of this as well uh was about funding, that there was funding available for this type of work. Um and that there were certain states that seemed ripe for uh for trying to move proactive legislation.
Benn Marine 17:03
So when you say states being kind of ripe for that legislation, does that mean so like the funding was there? It was perhaps maybe a movable legislature, or like those, like those are kind of are those kind of like the big pieces is like funding, makeup of the legislature and and political leaning of the like general public?
Molly Griffard 17:24
Yeah, I mean I think I think when it comes to legislative advocacy, it's really about um yeah, about a power map of the legislature and really looking at okay, what's the makeup of the legislature? How much support do we have? What's it going to take to move legislators who aren't currently with us? You know, and sometimes it's not even about like if it's 50-50 and you can get that extra vote. It's about, you know, who's in leadership and will they send it to a favorable committee or not? Um, or will this bill die in committee? So it's a very complex um analysis of you know what legislatures might have the appetite and the ability to actually move a proactive piece of LGBT non-discrimination legislation. I think something that you also have to be really aware of, you know, you mentioned public support for any state that has uh the ability to repeal legislation such as Maine. Maine did this in 2009 with the marriage bill that had been passed through the legislature, signed by the governor, and then repealed by voters. And so I think you have to be really aware when you're pushing proactive legislation. Uh, if you're working in a state that has that kind of mechanism where opponents can actually collect signatures and put it on the ballot, you really have to be aware of that. You have to be aware if it is something that you have organized opposition, if they're likely to do that, then you do need to really consider what kind of public support you have and whether you've got the resources and the infrastructure to run the type of campaign that's required to be able to overcome our opposition's really nasty attacks. And I think a great example of that would be what just happened in Massachusetts this last fall, um, and that some amazing uh former colleagues of both of ours uh were, you know, just absolutely inspiring in their work in Massachusetts to protect the state's trans-inclusive non-discrimination bill. But what had happened after years and years and years of legislative advocacy, you know, this was, I feel like a couple of years ago now, they actually passed trans uh public accommodations protections through the legislature only to have the opponents put it on the ballot and then to have to face that really, really difficult uphill battle of trying to protect the protections uh at the ballot. And, you know, luckily in Massachusetts, they ran an amazing campaign. They did, you know, years of work, tons of you know, direct voter contact, persuasion conversations, a really intensive get out the vote program, you know, through all of that, they were able to win at the ballot, you know, but we've seen that's not always the case. There are communities throughout the country, like in Houston, and I worked on the Houston uh campaign where you know activists have gotten something passed through the legislature, or in you know, Houston's case, the city council, that then gets repealed. And the repeal itself is very you know devastating to LGBTQ folks. And it, you know, our opponents' messages actually can cause real safety, uh real threats of safety for especially trans people of color who are you know at ridiculously high risk of violence in our country.
Benn Marine 20:59
And so I think you have to be really careful when you're thinking about moving something proactively about you know the potential blowback and what uh what could come of that for maybe a listener who has an issue that they care about and you know is hearing this and and having to weigh kind of you know, there's pros and cons to everything. What would be um some advice that you would give, like maybe some first steps?
Molly Griffard 21:26
Yeah, well, I mean, I think the idea of organizing is that we never do work alone. Uh so I think a first step is to find other people who are also passionate about this, affected by this issue. And, you know, there are definitely people who work on things who are allies. So if if you're an ally to an issue, especially find people who are directly impacted and who are not just directly impacted, but also try to find the people who are most impacted and you know, keep an open mind about what different people say. You know, is their goal or their objective. And so I think that's a real first step if you're passionate about something is you know not working alone and making sure to work with people who are most impacted. And you know, from there developing goals and a strategy. And I think also working with organizate, you know, organizations that are already doing this type of work, whether it be legislative advocacy or electoral work uh in you know your city or state, so that you can, you know, plug into some of the already existing infrastructure, I think can be really helpful. And so I think, yeah, just organizing means not doing the work alone and about building a community around the work.
Benn Marine 22:46
I'm curious, how have you seen organizing change over time?
Molly Griffard 22:50
Well, first of all, I think organizing looks like a whole lot of different things in different places, in different movements. I think electoral organizing looks very different than you know old school traditional community organizing. So I think that there are going to be different types of organizing for different moments and different places and different movements. Uh, but I think you know, my background in organizing, I think, you know, with you as well, is really, you know, issue-based electoral and legislative organizing. I think, you know, like you said, I think what has shifted in that world a lot is, yeah, technology obviously changes everything. I think that the crux of organizing, and I, you know, of course, just that like organizing is different in different contexts, but really the crux of what unites it is that it's it's people-centered and it's relationship-centered. And so I think that the hesitation within the type of organizing that we do to lean too heavily on technology is because sometimes it feels like it can take the human connection out of it. But I do think that as we've shifted in terms of how we communicate, that there is human connection in texting. There is human connection in social media. So, of course, you know, as organizers, we need to use those tools to connect with other people, to build relationships, to, you know, communicate. We used to leave messages reminding people, you know, voicemails uh reminding people to come to volunteer events. And I'm sure, you know, a lot of campaigns probably still do that, but like I never really check my voicemail. I'm horrible about this. So, you know, in part I need to recognize that I'm not alone in that, and that I'm more likely to respond immediately to a text or a text reminding me to go somewhere is very helpful. And so I think being willing to be flexible and adapt to new technology uh is critical. And I think you know, I've seen a lot of campaigns in this past uh electoral cycle really adopted uh more you know social media and and like texting direct outreach with volunteers actually using uh you know text to to mobilize people. And I think that's really key.
Benn Marine 25:10
Absolutely. And you mentioned earlier um Wellstone Action as as a as a great resource and uh place of learning. I'm curious what other resources have you used over the years in terms of whether it's trying to figure out a new strategy or um planning, anything like that. What are what are some other resources you would point folks towards?
Molly Griffard 25:31
Wellstone Action, I think recently renamed itself and rebranded, and I think it's now called uh looking it up, Repower. So if you are looking for that type of training that I talked about before, they're called Repower now, and they're great. So I think, you know, they are they're one model and one training method. I think the Midwest Academy is also another really great uh training resource for organizers. I learned a lot from uh more senior organizers who I worked with on campaigns who are trained and worked for the national LGBTQ task force. And you know, they've got some fantastic organizers and training resources on their website, uh, or if they used to at least. And yeah, so I think learning both through trainings and then through more senior organizers who had been doing the work longer, really being intentional about seeking out feedback from more senior organizers who had more experience so that I could, you know, take every opportunity to learn and grow. Uh, I think really helped. So, you know, I'd recommend both seeking out training resources and using every uh organizing, you know, campaign or whatever you're working on to get more experience and to learn and to be reflective and to debrief to really think about what went well, what didn't go well, so that you know you can use every bit of the work to actually get better at the work.
Benn Marine 27:05
Speaking of learning, do you have any favorite like aha moments? Like, oh my gosh, I can't believe this thing happened, or oh my like figuring stuff out?
Molly Griffard 27:13
I'm not sure that I had like an aha moment, but I can be really stubborn and really bad at asking for help. And I think something that organizing taught me is that the whole idea is that you ask for help. And you know, it might be that I really recognize myself in this training that I remember, and it's a training, it's about asking for help. And they sort of start it with uh the this particular training curriculum starts with the trainers. One of the trainers, like basically running around like a chicken with their head cut off, like trying to set up chairs, like holding like coffee boxes, like spilling things, you know, just a mess. And the whole idea is this shows you you can't like do everything by yourself. Like, you know, meanwhile, people are like milling about, not doing anything. So the idea is like the right thing to do is to ask for help. Yet sometimes as organizers, we want to like do everything ourselves. We want to like get our phone bank action set up like perfectly and like not ask the volunteers who showed up who are gonna like go through the training and then get on the phones to like set up chairs or you know, put out scripts or whatever it is that you know. So I think I really recognize myself in that and have this like, oh my gosh, I really have to work on this. I really need to work on asking for help at every opportunity because every piece of the work on a campaign, you know, is something that you know, the community that cares about it should be bought into. And there's no ask that's you know too big or too small.
Benn Marine 28:55
That's super real. I feel like that was one of my biggest learns, too, is and I think something I still continue to work on.
Molly Griffard 29:01
It's a constant struggle for me. I have to remind myself all the time to ask for help.
Benn Marine 29:06
Any like favorite moments overall?
Molly Griffard 29:08
Winning. Um I mean, winning uh campaign is a magical, magical moment. But I think really what's even more magical than winning is winning with the community and in seeing the people who are impacted by the work, like seeing how their lives change. So seeing how, you know, on marriage equality campaigns, how you know my host dads in Rhode Island could get married. And you know, that just makes such a huge difference. And seeing how legislators whose minds we changed, like have become not only, you know, they change their mind and vote in support of marriage equality, but it actually pushed them to become, you know, more open-minded about other things too, and to be, you know, less afraid of taking stands that they thought were controversial. So I think you know, that's really exciting. So both winning, but also the community that's built, the community that benefits, and also the the work that can continue to happen and like the the momentum that is built out of the win. Or, you know, and also the momentum that is built out of losing forward. So, you know, there are places where we've had devastating defeats, but amazing seeds have been planted. And volunteers who were so scared to get on the phone for the very, you know, their very first phone bank are now working as organizers in the movement or you know, advocates and and working full-time um on this type of work. So, yeah, I guess just probably in a roundabout way to answer your question, like the best thing about it is the movement that's built and the wins that come both when like getting the actual wins, but also the wins from the community that's built.
Benn Marine 31:08
LGBTQ stuff, right? Like non-scrim and marriage, those sorts of things. It it feels like we very much like uh have like a set strategy, a lot of language that we know to use, those sorts of things. I'm curious, how has your experience been applying that knowledge base to other issues? Because I know for me, moving on to other issues in my the the first issue I worked on after you know that wasn't LGBTQ related, uh, and I'm thinking, oh, like I've totally got this. Like just gonna apply all this like knowledge bank to this other issue, and but it didn't really seem to work as well. Um And I don't know if that's because of the issue, but uh but see I'm curious about your experience kind of applying from one issue to another.
Molly Griffard 31:55
Yeah, well, I mean, I haven't done the same type of organizing in other issues because um, I mean, I think my work in other issue areas has been, you know, as a law student or like as you know, someone showing up really to protest. So more like the person being organized and not an organizer. So I think some of it looks like if you're, you know, for those interested in getting involved in different movements or work, some of it looks like, you know, you're not necessarily gonna be the organizer, you might be the organized at first. Um, and it might just be a different model. Um, you know, for example, I think something that the phase of the work in marriage equality is very different than say, you know, the type of work happening to push back against police brutality. And, you know, in that when we were working in marriage equality in the states, it was a very specific bill that you're trying to get passed through the legislature, and there's a specific legislative strategy, and you know, it's sort of everything is built out from that. Whereas I think police brutality is a much different issue that is both about government actors and how we hold police accountable, but it's also about you know, a huge history of racism and how policing came about in the first place from you know the history of slavery. And and so I think there's you know a really a different, I'm not sure if I'm making a lot of sense on this, but there is a different uh different tactics are needed. And so I'm not sure if that answered your question at all.
Benn Marine 33:51
No, no, it does. No, that that makes sense. That makes sense.
Molly Griffard 33:54
Um Yeah, and I guess yeah, I mean, sorry, just to go back to your question about you know different tactics and different things. I think you know, some of the work in say criminal legal system reform, some of that might be about organizing around bills, but there's no one bill, like you know, the marriage equality bill uh that's going to solve the issue of mass incarceration. It's a lot of tweaks here and there that might reduce like incarceration levels. Uh and and there's the whole like net need for systemic and cultural change around how we think about race and how we think about punishment for crimes. And uh, you know, so there's there's big social issues at play, and then a lot of very specific policy-oriented things that need to be shifted as opposed to you know organizing around one bill that's going to address your issue. Sorry, it's new material that you can use, but I'm not sure if any of it's useful. I'm sorry.
Benn Marine 35:02
No, it's that's good. It's good. No, it's helpful because it's helpful to think about that stuff. And I think that's um, you know, kind of like what you were talking about earlier, how we we tend to we know our way of organizing and we get stuck in that. I think, you know, it and I think this uh also looking at um like gun violence in America too, right? I think it's a uh there's so many different there's so many different things that have to happen to to see that through. It's not like it's a as black and white as marriage.
Molly Griffard 35:29
And not like marriage like solves homophobia, just like passing some sort of criminal legal system reform bill that's going to like reduce prison populations doesn't solve racism like in the criminal system, but like it you know, so so there's there's underlying social issues, but then there's also um just a difference in terms of what the like policy solutions are. And I think it's yeah, when you're organizing for something that's just as clear-cut as you know, a single bill, you can be a lot more focused behind that one bill than when you're trying to like really restructure a major part of our legal system. It looks a lot different.
Benn Marine 36:13
And and when it comes to kind of those like that social piece, like that's like the the um kind of societal attitudes and things that need to change. I mean, uh so I think about like to, you know, marriage, how we talk about changing hearts and minds and that sort of thing. Do you think that there's a way that organizing can happen just around education and and uh a shift in the culture? What do you mean in terms of as opposed to just policy, you know what I mean?
Molly Griffard 36:43
Yeah, no, I think absolutely, and I think it is happening, and I think there's really amazing work happening throughout the country on uh both policy and also creating uh social change or societal change and changing perceptions around you know, I'm obviously somewhat focused on the criminal legal system, but I think there's a ton of organizing. I think Black Lives Matter, I think there is a really a shifting consciousness of uh race in the country and of I think, you know, 10 years ago we didn't really understand mass incarceration, as you know, what Michelle Alexander wrote, The New Jim Crow, you know, I think that uh her book, I think a lot of organizing happening sort of in that vein have really helped us, you know, a growing number of people around the country to really wake up and see what is happening with the criminal justice system. So I do think there is organizing and advocacy happening that is creating social change that I sure hope will you know push us towards radically reshaping how our how we address the criminal system and radically reshaping how uh race uh functions in this country.
Benn Marine 38:04
Cool. Well, thank you so much.
Molly Griffard 38:07
Thank you.
Benn Marine 38:15
Thank you so much for tuning in this week. For more info on what Molly has shared with us, head on over to oceanoforganizing.com to check out the show notes. While you're there, click on that feedback link in the top right and let me know how I can better serve you. What do you like about the podcast? What do you want more of? Less of? How's the sound and quality? Let me know. Uh thank you. I appreciate you.
