What We Can Learn from Organizing with Monna Wong

May 30, 2019

In this episode, Benn sits down with Monna Wong, a longtime organizer and former Executive Director of API Equality Northern California, to talk about sustaining a life in movement work. Monna traces her path from youth activism to campaign organizing, and shares how becoming a parent reshaped her boundaries, her sense of urgency, and what she's organizing for. They dig into what made the 2012 Maine marriage equality campaign team so effective — a culture built on direct feedback, celebrating requests for help, and giving people room to bring their full selves to the work — and Monna pushes back on metrics-only definitions of success, arguing that how a team treats each other matters as much as what it accomplishes. She closes with hard-won advice: it's never too late to make a good decision, and any hard moment is a tunnel you'll get through.

SHOW NOTES

This week I am thrilled to have my friend and mentor Monna Wong on the show. Currently living in San Francisco with roots in New York, I met Monna when she was the Regional Field Director for marriage equality in Maine in 2012. Running the Portland field operation she grew the team to where by election day there were over 2,000 volunteers that walked through the Portland office alone in the final two weeks of the campaign. She shares with us some of her favorite moments, biggest struggles, and inspirations that keep her in the work. She hooked me into organizing and I continue to learn from Monna with virtually every interaction we have and this interview is no exception. 

Monna has experience running and directing field operations for LGBTQ campaigns on Marriage Equality and Non-Discrimination, she was the Executive Director of API Equality of Northern California working to build LGBTQ Asian and Pacific Islander power, she has consulted on a myriad of projects and is currently a Partner in Special Projects at The Management center. She is also passionate about life and health and as a newish parent with her partner is constantly inspiring in her ability to prioritize the things she cares about most. 

The Management Center – Monna is currently a partner at the Management center working in special projects. If you’re not familiar with the management center definitely check them and their trainings out, they have some incredible content for sure though trainings are not free. If you are looking for a more financially accessible way of checking out their content check out the book Managing to Change the World which is a great resource.

• Transcript

  Benn Marine 0:21

  Mono one has been not only a message for a close friend of mine for years, but it's also the one that organized. I remember that for my very first year. So, and forever, and ASCII, the executive director of HPI, the quality of North California, or ASCII, the project and project. So without further ado, let's go. So I'm curious what got you into organizing?

  Monna Wong 1:43

  Well, I I feel like my first experience organizing was on LGBTQ campaigns, electoral campaigns, and that was after college. But I I would say that I'd been doing activism and I was being primed for organizing as like a student in high school when I started uh participating in in these like youth leadership development programs in New York for Asian American youth. And I think, you know, fundamentally it was just seeing disparities, seeing and experiencing disparities in how people were being treated based on race, gender, class, you know, all of all of the all of the isms. Um and wanting to do something about it.

  Benn Marine 2:42

  I think one of the things that I really appreciate about you is that you I I I feel like of all the folks I know, you seem to be or at least I don't know if this is wrong, but it seems that you are the most uh able to balance that like work, but also like personal life. And I'm curious how how what that like how you how you how you do that.

  Monna Wong 3:05

  Um I think having a baby definitely makes it easier to say no. I feel like, you know, uh for better or worse, because it is like so it is socially acceptable in our society to have a kid and then ha and then it's like understood that that will change your life, that all of a sudden it becomes a lot easier to say like, nope, I can't show up at this thing, or I can't or I can't be on that committee, or I can't take that shift because I am trying to keep this tiny human alive. Um I wouldn't say that that was always the case. I think that pre-trial, like that I definitely, especially in the beginning when I was when I was first starting to organize and I was working on campaigns, it was so easy to get sucked in and kind of just like uh consumed by the work. Um I think that that's true for a lot of young, uh queer folks, especially, um, or like folks who are just trying to like, you know, create change in the world and build community while they're doing it. It becomes so easy to just say, like, okay, the people that I organize with, they're also my family. They're the people that I I might also live with them and we're just gonna do everything together. Like, I'm gonna eat, sleep, and breathe organizing, and this is like this is this who I am now. Um and I think that's that's awesome until it's not until it becomes like so much a part of your identity that you don't have space to develop other aspects of your identity, you know, and and I say this as someone who I feel like I o I'm always gonna identify as an organizer, um, because organizing has influenced like every aspect of how I approach the rest of my life. Um and at the same time, like I think it's it's taken me a lot of learning about what it means to be an organizer um for the long haul.

  Benn Marine 5:12

  Yeah, I'm curious, like what are what are some of those things that that you've learned in terms of like that long haul and also like something I just heard you say was um you know applying kind of your organizer skills or toolbox to other parts of your life. Like what what are some of those skills and tools that you've used in other facets of life and then and and kind of two questions in one, but if that makes sense.

  Monna Wong 5:37

  Yeah, well I would say I like to tell people that like okay, so when I got started as an organizer, I was like working in Ohio trying to protect um an LGBT non-discrimination ordinance in this small city in Ohio. And a lot of my job was like getting people to do stuff that was kind of scary, you know, like trying to recruit volunteers to knock on the doors of people that they we you know, we we wouldn't be able, we wouldn't know if they were gonna be on our side or not. Um and I feel like as much as as like organizing can be fun, and can't you know some people love canvassing and phone banking, I don't know if it's really anyone's like number one thing that they want to do on a Saturday morning or Tuesday evening. And so I feel like having had the experience of getting people to do the thing that they might be most scared of has been like really helpful in almost every other aspect of my life. You know, like I think just like getting people excited to do something that might not be fun, it might be scary, but you know that it is like ultimately better for everyone, um, and that the work needs to get done. I mean, that's what I tell myself whenever I like get out of bed and go to Pilates in the morning when I don't want to do that, right? Um so so that's like definitely one part of it. Um I would also say like learning how to communicate with people who may not be on your side and who may never be on your side, but to be able to have like to be civil and have dialogue um that's both honest and that and maintains your own integrity. Like that's something that I learned from organizing. That's something that I learned from like talking to voters at their doorsteps and trying to recruit volunteers on you know street corners, and it's definitely helped me be better about communicating with people that actually are with me and who are in my community.

  Benn Marine 7:51

  That makes sense. I'm curious for for folks who maybe are maybe less experienced or just getting started, uh what are some of those skills that you've used, like in terms of like maybe tips for motivating people to do the thing that they don't want to do, but that is maybe good for the greater collective.

  Monna Wong 8:09

  I'm trying to remember what I would tell new organizers when when when I was working directly with them and training them. I think the first thing is really deeply understanding why it is that you do the work. Um whatever your internal motivation is, I would always tell organize new organizers to bring or volunteers to bring that to to bring that out 110%. So like whatever whatever it is that gets you out of bed in the morning to do the work, shine a light on that and show that to the people that you are trying to recruit or uh motivate or train or whatever whoever it is that you're working with, you know, first and and the thing is the motivation is different for everybody. Some people are in it because they're just deeply afraid of what's gonna happen if we lose. Um and so like fear can be a really big motivator for some folks. But some people are in it because they're just like so excited about the possibility of what the world could look like if XYZ change happened. Um and so to those people I would say like bring that excitement because whatever it is that you truly feel and believe in, that's the thing that's gonna resonate the most in other people. Um and it's the thing that's gonna come across most authentically, right? Like you can't use someone el else's motivation to um to inspire other people because it doesn't work that way. I think the other thing is like when you're an organizer and especially when you're working with people who aren't already with you, um, or if you're working, you know, primarily with people who don't have a lot of experience with organizing, like we see on the daily firsthand how people can move, whether that's like they're changing their hearts and minds, or they are gaining more confidence in themselves, or they're like developing new skills so that they can go out and you know, get better results. Uh to remember that like we all actually have a starting point, like none of us arrive at the table fully formed um with everything that we need to get the work done. And so like I think being able to have that sense of generosity and grace towards the people that we work with and are in community with um can help us actually be more compassionate when we're working with folks who aren't quite where we are yet. And I think it helps us like you know, maintain that sense of humility that helps us grow and get better at what we do. I think does that answer your question?

  Benn Marine 10:46

  Yeah, no, it does. That's that's awesome. I'm and I'm curious, kind of on that same line, w what is it about the work that um you're most passionate about or that keeps you in it?

  Monna Wong 10:57

  Hmm. I guess I set myself up for that question, huh? Uh you know, I'm not I'm not someone who's really motivated by fear for sure. I think for me it is it is imagining possibility and it it's like the act of like stretching my own imagination. Um like I sometimes still have a hard time, you know, like I think it can be really easy to get stuck in the short and like medium term wins. So like getting this piece of legislation passed or blocking that horrible thing from happening. It's it's hard to imagine what liberation can really look like. And so but I feel excited about that. I feel excited about like imagining the possibilities. And I think like going back to having a kid. Definitely becoming a parent has changed I know this sounds really cliche, but becoming a parent has definitely changed how I feel about what I'm working towards. Um, because all of a sudden I feel like it's not just about the change that I can make in my lifetime, but what am I setting up so that my children's or child's lifetime, you know, will look different. I I was recently at a convening and we were asked to uh call upon a person or people that we are like doing this work for and someone was like, I'm I'm doing this for all of the people who are seven generations ahead. Um, and I know that that's that's something that's like that I've that I've heard before, but I feel like that's definitely a lot more on my mind now. Like fe this deep sense of responsibility for leaving the world a little bit better and not just for my one child um or all the people in my child's generation, but for like the many, many generations afterwards.

  Benn Marine 13:08

  Kind of along that same line of of parenthood, uh I I know something that comes up a lot is folks often have the question, how how do you do that? How do you and and and maybe this is something that you kind of already touched on, but how how do you navigate parenthood while balancing it with this with this work?

  Monna Wong 13:29

  Yeah, I would say I don't know if I'm really doing it that well right now, you know. Um I've only been I mean it's only been a year and a half, and I I imagine that I feel like right now I'm still in kind of like a parent grace period, like people are definitely extending a lot of grace to me when I'm like I can't do the thing or I'm not as involved in some of the organizations that I've been that that I'd been like volunteering with. Um so I don't know, like I feel like I I might have I'll probably have a different answer to this in like two years. Um but what I can say is I've been I've just it is it is really liberating to just be really clear with yourself and other people on what your boundaries are. So like I told myself I wasn't gonna do or I was gonna avoid as much as possible evening commitments. And um and I have. I think that I'm just finding different ways to be involved with some of the causes and organizations that I care about. I think the thing about being a parent is that it it definitely forces you to spend your time more efficiently. And so I find that even though I kind of have less time, I'm doing more because I'm doing more with it. Um, I think the other thing is I'm noticing more and more now which movement spaces are actually family friendly. So like I'm one hundred times more likely to show up to something if it's ha gonna if it happens before 5 p.m., you know? Or if I know that like there's gonna be child care, um or if I know that I can bring my child to to the thing. And it's really making me realize like how much actually our organizing spaces are inaccessible to families, which is I think it's okay that not every space is accessible to babies and children. Like everyone has a role to play somewhere. Um but I think that like w whenever I do get back more back, you know, into organizing, I'll be thinking about like what are some of the actual what are the things that I had never considered before that I'll need to consider now that I am a parent. Yeah, I I can't and you know, I I feel like this answer is a little dissatisfying because I I don't know if I have like pro tips for how to have it all, because I don't think you really can. Um I also think there's something about like the individual choices that I make as a parent with my child um and the things that I want to teach her about how to be in the world that like I'm starting to confront now, but like it's gonna come up more and more. Like, what kind of books are we reading? You know, where how am I teaching her how to treat other people? Like those are also aspects of parenting that that intersect with organizing, right? Because it's about um how do I teach her how to be in a world that might not actually be that's not made for everybody. So I feel like I'm deeply having to examine my personal choices while recognizing that my personal choices are not always gonna be enough. Like that's you know, it can I mean those are really important, but also um it's also important to stay connected to community um and to actually be out there organizing. Like I think it it can be really easy for parents to be like, Well, my child the way that I raise my child is my activism and and uh while I respect that, I also feel like for me personally that's not enough.

  Benn Marine 17:21

  That makes sense. Yeah, that's super and thank you for for sharing that. I'm gonna change gears a little bit here. Uh so you've done you've you've had a bunch of different roles, you know, executive director of API Equality Northern California, you've been a consultant for a few different organizations of Europe just managing special projects right now. I'm curious, of all of those roles, what has been some of the biggest challenges and how how have you navigated those?

  Monna Wong 17:53

  Oh man. When I was running a a tiny nonprofit when I was the ED of A Pink, that was very hard work. And I I think okay, I'm gonna I guess there are a couple of things. One is feeling like you're always having to prove to other people why your work is important. I felt that more at A-Pink than I did anywhere else. Um and the reason for that I think is because, you know, A-Pink was is a small uh it's a small scrappy organization run by you know, by and for queer and trans Asians and Pacific Islanders, right? It's like a very it's a very specific community of people and um I I don't think it's always clear to outsiders why the work that we do or did and do is important. Um you know, it's different from telling someone that you're working on a campaign to uh legalize marriage for same-sex couples, which I think people get that. Like even people who don't don't agree with marriage for same-sex couples or who aren't that interested in being married themselves, like understand why that is a valid or important struggle. So I think that when I was at A Pink, there was a lot of having to prove one, first of all, like sometimes people are just surprised that like queer and trans API people exist in the world. So there's like that first that first hurdle of like being making yourself known in the world, and then the the second piece is like making your issues and your experiences known to people, and then then the third layer of that is like getting people to work with you to resolve those issues or to you know, to change um the conditions that create those issues. Like I I think it I think it is very hard to be an organizer within the nonprofit industrial complex. I think it's it's really hard when when you're trying to figure out like how to how to do work that is like deep and meaningful and then also like how to state the case so that you can get funding for it. And then wanting to sustain the work and the people who are doing the work while also recognizing that like some of the stuff that we do and the ways that we make change exists outside of these logic models or the theories of change or the strategic plans that are expected of us. And I I I don't think that my experience at A Pink was unique. I think that a lot of queer and trans people of color, a lot of cultural workers, um, and a lot of m just marginalized communities experience this struggle when when they're doing the work that they do.

  Benn Marine 21:02

  Yeah, and I I I feel like in in that vein, a lot of or it sounds like a lot of that is is kind of tied to how like nonprofits, it's all very like metric driven and and all of you know wanting tangibles and deliverables and all these things. And I'm curious what your thoughts are around like uh how we define success. Like how like what like like if like if you could like wave a wand and you know, how you know kind of change the way that that those frameworks are, like how what what do you think would be a great place for us to start to kind of dissect and uh kind of rebuild?

  Monna Wong 21:43

  Yeah. I I often wonder what would it be like if we evaluated the success of of organizers, of organizations, of movements based on not just what they accomplished. But also how they go about it. Like, does the way that an organization go about accomplishing its mission reflect what it is that they're trying to achieve? Like are people being kind to each other? How many people are are left at the end of the day? You know, like how many people come back to the work? Um those are the things that I I wonder about. I because I think that like especially for groups that are just trying to envision like a whole different way of doing things, we can get so wrapped up in in the results that we're trying to achieve that we don't actually like treat each other all that well. I feel like this question of like how do we keep people in the work? Um, like how do we do the work in a way that m that doesn't lose anybody? Um, is something that like no matter what the issue is that you're working on, whatever the movement, community, organization, like that is a problem that we all face. And I I've I feel like I've seen this over and over again, where people just get burnt out or they have conflict and they don't know how to resolve it, or like people have trauma and they're just replicating it in their relationships with each other, that like we don't know how to be we don't know how to treat each other in any other way, right? So we're just like replicating all the symptoms of the systems of oppression that we're we're trying to change or trying to eradicate. Yeah. Like I don't so I know this isn't totally answering the question about like what are the what's what should how should we be measuring success? But I think that like the the tough thing for me, the thing that I'm reckoning with right now is like even when we achieve our goals, if there's like all this if there are all these broken relationships along the way, like what how much have we really changed or how much have we really reimagined about our future or our world?

  Benn Marine 24:02

  Yeah, that's that's so I don't know.

  Monna Wong 24:04

  I would love to see like funders or anyone really calling into question like how how we're keeping people in you know, in the mix.

  Benn Marine 24:17

  Right, and thinking about like that sustainability piece. Yeah, yeah, that's super real. Um I'm curious, what what about what about favorite moments? Do you have like a a favorite of like a classic favorite memory?

  Monna Wong 24:31

  You know, I I think that probably all of my favorite moments actually come from working in Maine because I feel like we created such a special space for people to like do the hard work and also experience a whole lot of joy. And so like all my favorite moments are like the silly times or or the times when we woke up at like five in the morning to go surfing before a 12 hour workday. Um I think that it's like incredible that like people can work so hard but be so invested still in like having fun and building community that we would do things like like make time to to go climbing, you know, in the middle of the day or um sing songs like that video of us what's that song that's like the church song?

  Benn Marine 25:27

  Oh my gosh. I uh do you remember? I do, I I do remember, I do remember it. I do remember it.

  Monna Wong 25:34

  Yeah, those are some of the best times, you know, like when you're just doing the thing and it and it's like all the things, all the little things that make the hard stuff feel easier or more palatable, um, those are my favorite moments. And I feel like the one of the most remarkable things about the human condition is like people's ability to find joy even when it's stressful or hard or uh frustrating. Um like those are definitely the things that stand out to me.

  Benn Marine 26:10

  Yeah, you know, I think uh for folks who were part of the marriage campaign in 2012 in Portland, Maine, I think I I think uh or at least for myself I can say, I mean, that that was just the team environment was so incredible. And I think a lot of folks would attribute that to your leadership. Um I when you're building teams and you're thinking about like intentionally building that team culture, how like how how do you do that? Like I mean, it was just such an incredibly uh I mean magical feels cheesy, but also accurate, you know, for that space.

  Monna Wong 26:47

  Oh thanks. You know, I think about that was the biggest team I had managed up until that point. And actually it's still the biggest team that I've managed. Um, you know, there were I don't even remember how many full-time organizers we had, but it was like I yeah, I can't remember, but it was all it also like I think it grew from like two to like fifteen or something over a couple of months, and then we had a a bunch of volunteers. And I think the the my North Star for building a team was like wanting to create a space where people felt like their full humanity was being recognized and could be present. Um I had just been in so many spaces up until that point and also some spaces since then where um I felt like I had to leave a part of myself at the door and I just didn't want folks to feel that way. Um especially because I felt like I had a really big responsibility because there were people not just people who are brand new to organizing, but people who are brand new to being queer or brand new to being trans or maybe had not yet even discovered those things about themselves. Um and there were so many young folks that I was like I imagined the kind of space I wanted when I was brand new to a space and I just tried to do all of those things. Um and I mean honestly I think that part of what made it possible for me to do that was one, I had a team, you know, like I had a core team of people who are just as invested in creating that space. And then the other thing is that I was given the autonomy to actually create that space. Like no one was looking over my shoulder being like, Why are you creating music videos in the middle of the day? Or why are you taking two hour breaks? Um, like there wasn't that kind of scrutiny, and so I think like the the the magic was allowed to happen, you know. Um I also feel like we looked out because everyone who was on our team like was deeply invested in each other and and like wanted to do the best work that they could and they wanted to treat each other well. Like I don't I don't know if there were if there were people who didn't share that investment, I don't think that they stayed on the team that long. Um, you know, mostly by choice, right? Like they would like I I feel like we were unapologetic and unwavering in our commitment to building a a very specific type of team environment. And so like people it's almost like people self-selected into it and they wanted to build that with us. I mean, what do you think?

  Benn Marine 29:40

  Yeah, no, I mean I I think that that's super real. And I think, you know, I because I think the other piece of it that and and I and I I partly asked the question because I feel like I've attempted to try to create that magic, and and I don't know how I feel like there are definitely instances where I was successful in in doing that in on in certain projects and definitely areas where I feel like I I fell short. And but when I think back to like that particular team, I mean I just have nothing but fond memories. And on top of that, uh we crushed every goal and metric that we were you know, like I think what was it like the final weeks of the campaign, there were over 2,000 volunteers that walked through those doors in those final weeks. I mean that's just I mean it's just incredible um what what was accomplished. Um so I think Yeah, I mean it definitely was uh I I I think you and and and the team were very successful in creating an atmosphere that people just could not get enough of.

  Monna Wong 30:37

  You know, I think a big part of it was that we weren't afraid to give feedback and we made feedback like a huge part of our culture um like from the beginning. And it it it was part of how we invested in each other and in our community, is that we we would we would call things out if if something wasn't working or if folks weren't showing up um as their best selves. Like I think that we we are we made space to to really like be honest about the hard stuff as well. Um so it wasn't just like we were all cheerleaders and we're like, you know, rah-rah, everything is great, but it was like we created the kind of like space where we could just have direct communication with each other about when things weren't working. Um and that helped us build trust in each other that like, oh yeah, if something's not going well, I know you'll tell me. Or if something's going on with you, I know that I know that you'll be honest about it and we can work through it together. It it never felt like it never felt like we weren't on the same side.

  Benn Marine 31:44

  Yeah.

  Monna Wong 31:45

  And you know, like going back to the thing about like being a parent, I don't know if I would have been able to do that if I weren't like a 20, if I weren't like 22 and twenty or twenty-three, and like that was all my life was was like working on this campaign.

  Benn Marine 32:00

  Yeah. Well, and I think something else uh that really attributed to that team culture, and it was the first time I had ever kind of encountered this framework was this idea, and and I've talked about it, I feel like a and it comes up a lot, I think, in the other podcast episodes, but just this whole idea and concept of asking for help. And like I even I feel like I remember even like in almost every check-in we ever had, like as a team, and we would have them every morning and every evening, that there was always a like ask for help moment. You know, and that it just was such a part of the the team culture to you know that like that work hoarding was so discouraged and that like asking for help and inviting people into the work was so promoted and so celebrated. I think that was I I think that was really huge too.

  Monna Wong 32:46

  Thanks for reminding me of that.

  Benn Marine 32:49

  What about is there so through all these different roles and all in all of your experience, if there's any piece of advice that you could give your younger self or yourself as you were just kind of maybe ankle deep into the waters of organizing, what advice would you give yourself?

  Monna Wong 33:07

  Okay, before I answer this, do you have an answer for yourself?

  Benn Marine 33:10

  Uh advice for my younger self. I think my I I think my advice for my younger self would be just to be more gentle and patient with myself. You know, like just knowing that like I'm I I I don't need to have all the answers, even though it often feels like uh I think especially when you're put into leadership roles quickly. You know, when you move up from leadership quickly, I think or at least for me something I struggle to feel like, oh my gosh, like everyone's looking to me for answers. Like I need to know all the things. And the reality is like that's just not true. Like it's still okay and still important to ask for help. And it's still um okay to say, you know what, I don't know. You know, like let's figure it out together, right? Um I think that's something I maybe continue to to struggle with even even in uh in in current work is is recognizing that no no amount of years or experience or anything is like like we're all still learning and growing and and just to be patient and gentle ourselves. Yeah, I think just being patient and gentle.

  Monna Wong 34:17

  You know, I have to say that I got some pretty good advice early on because I had like a really awesome mentor. Um and like, you know, shout out to Beck Sahuja who totally like taught me how to organize. Um and the best advice that I got earlier on, well there were a couple of things, but one that stands out to me is like it's never too late to make a good decision. Which I've found very liberating many times in my life whenever I've felt stuck in a bad situation where I'm like, wait, I still can make a a good decision here. Um, but with that said, if I were to go back, I think the thing that I would tell myself is something that one of my coworkers recently said to me, or that this is one of her life mottos, is um the mantra, this is a tunnel and you'll get through it. And I think that you know, when you're like in a very intense moment, it can feel like this is it, this is the whole world, like everything, this is the only thing that matters. And I I think that like that that's very much a campaign mentality too, right? Because when you're trying to recruit volunteers or you're trying to talk to voters, like you we talk so much about urgency. It's like everything is urgency, urgency, urgency. We're always trying to convince ourselves and other people that like this is the most important thing you can do right now. Um, which I think that's helpful, right? Like it it definitely helps get results. And at the same time, I don't think that having tunnel vision, like a sustained amount of tunnel vision ends up like helps us in the long run. Um and so just having that perspective of like this is a moment in time and we're we're gonna get through this and like whether or not the results are what we want them to be, we're gonna w there's gonna be another side to this and we're gonna like move on. I think that that's that can be really helpful. It helps with not feeling like you're just gonna burn out because you have to give everything to that particular moment. And I think there's almost like a sense of relief that, you know, like time keeps moving forward. We will we are gonna keep living even after this move this moment is over.

  Benn Marine 36:47

  You mentioned that you can always make a good decision now. I I'm curious to hear more like about that. Like like what do you mean by that? Like you can all like you can always like change direction or or Yeah, I think for me it's a reminder that like you always have agency, right?

  Monna Wong 37:06

  There is like even when you're stuck in a bad in a bad situation or you know, it's it's really hard, you know, like it could be anything. You could be like you've planned an action and you don't have enough sign-ups, or you are trying to build a relationship with a coalition partner and it's like off to a rocky start, like there's always something you can do to try to improve your outcomes, right? And it's it's never you know, like I think sometimes we get trapped in this mindset of like, all right, well, like we made this decision and now we just have to live with it. And that's not always the case. You know, like just because we did one thing one at one time, it doesn't mean we're like suddenly married to that decision that we made in the past. So like whether that's like a person that you hired who is no longer a great fit, or um, I don't know, a goal that you set that like doesn't make sense anymore, like you can always make a good decision. You can always make a better decision to get to the outcomes that you want.

  Benn Marine 38:13

  I see. That makes sense. I love that. Love that. Um any last thoughts or or other other things you want to leave with folks or I think the thing that's most important to me about being in movement spaces and being in community with people is that no one person feels like disposable.

  Monna Wong 38:35

  You know, like I think like I w I think what matters to me is for people to feel like they have a place in the movement and that like if if you make mistakes you're not just gonna get tossed aside. Um, but that also like people bring into their interactions like the the intention of being in it for the long haul and that I w I want that to come out in the way that we treat each other. And it really is true that like chances are if you're like on a campaign with someone or you are um you know, organizing with someone that like chances are it's not gonna be the last time that you ever see them again. And so like how would we treat each other if we knew that like we would keep having to run into each other in the same spaces over and over again or even in different spaces? Um, like would that help us be better to each other? Um I would hope so.

  Benn Marine 39:32

  Thank you so much, Mona. I really, I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for tuning in this week's episode with Mona Wong. Hopefully, you all will get to hear more from Mona over the years as I find her insight and humor not only helpful but good for the soul. I've put links to all the resources I mentioned in the show notes, which you can find at OceanForganized.com, including the management center where Mona works. If you're not familiar with the management center, definitely check them out. They are a fantastic resource and offer some great trainings. Also, check out a copy of the book Management World. It's a great book and an excellent reference I know I've used a lot over the years. And if you're enjoying this podcast, please subscribe wherever we listen and leave a review. It helps us rank higher and helps more folks like yourself find this content. Thank you. I appreciate you. And as always, you can see the money.